Digital Parish: What is digital-first ministry? (With James Kang)

This is a change James Kang (JK):

What the digital first era means theologically is that we are no longer in an ecclesiological era or an era of ecclesiology. How should the church be structured? I believe that we are in an missiological era or an era of missiology. That means how will the gospel become incarnate when it “goes” to a particular area or particular place.

Ryan Dunn (RD):

That was the voice of James King, who is our adjunct professor for this session of pastoring in the digital parish. In this session, we explore the scope of a digital first ministry. What does a digital first ministry look like? How do we express presence to one another in a digital way? What is the future of digital ministry? My name is Ryan Dunn. I’m excited to share this, look into the future of ministry with you. We get into some futuring talk in this episode, and I really appreciate Jean’s his reference to bringing us up to 88 miles per hour. If you know, you know, there are some fascinating predictions here, some great clarifications on where we are currently and as always some wonderfully practical ideas. So let’s get to it and meet our adjunct professor. Oh, Hey, just a note of warning. My microphone sounds weird during the course of this interview, I’m aware of it, not sure why it does, but, uh, we don’t think it would detract too much from your understanding your appreciation of this podcast session. So, uh, with that in mind, let’s get to it.

James Kang is head of guidance and co-founder of Pastoria, which is a ministry innovation consultancy. It’s also an alum of Claremont school of theology and a proud Los Angeles resident. And, uh, what else do we have going on James?

JK:

Um, I’m a son and grandson of Methodist clergy. I’m a husband and father and, uh, we have apparently three children, um, running around here.

RD:

All right. So we will note for their interruptions, which is just the world that we live in. Well, in so much of the work that you do, you mentioned the phrase “digital first”, quite a bit. So what are the marks of a digital first era?

JK:

Definitely. Well, first of all, I want to say Ryan, thanks so much for the invitation and without getting into too much, I want to say that what’s happening at UMCom and the kind of ministry that you’re leading is really, really impressive. And not only that, just kind of a comfort to those people like myself who have been looking for that or looking for that at any part of the church. And I feel like Rethink Church is one of those things. I think that we are in an era that you may call the digital first era. And this year 2020 was pretty much a preview of where the world is headed. It’s probably going to, you know, time is not so much linear, but if it were, we kind of fast forwarded a little bit, and then we we’ll rewind a little bit, but we won’t go back to where we were not after people got a taste of what it’s like to live digital first.

And digital first means a lot of things to a lot of people. But what I would like to say for ministry is this ministry and church and quotes. If you want to call it that if we want to get down to the source or the roots of it, it is an idea churches, an idea ministry is an idea. And then we have to, or we have historically figured out how that idea is going to be. I’m sorry to use this term, but incarnated, it has been historically incarnated in terms of our buildings in terms of our denominational structures, in terms of polity and our theology and the way that we have organized our committees and leadership structures in a typical local church, it has been incarnated with membership. It has been incarnated with Sunday as the center, but when we live in the digital first era in trying to be native to the digital first era, it’s my contention that the very act of incarnating ideas in any field in any industry starts by very nature of what it means to be digital first in the digital space and what that means for digital first ministry, uh, or digital first church, is that pretty much the internet or digital space becomes the primary means.

Or if you want to say the central location for what you need to incarnate, whatever you need to incarnate to make happen, spiritual development, there’s a lot more to talk about, but I would say right off the bat, that’s what I mean,

RD:

That word incarnate has come up for us. A number of times, even in this young podcast, it’s funny to me how something that is focusing on digital space also focuses on an incarnate presence. And for a lot of people that is the objection to a digital ministry, right? Because we’re not in a sense incarnate or we’re not in flesh and blood present with one another. And yet that’s a mindset that most of us have to get over. So how do you see some of the ways that we are beginning to incarnate a presence in digital space? You know, the temptation

JK:

Is to kind of speak to the arguments that there might be for not doing this sort of thing, or to think of it as something that “should,” should not be done. And I suppose just kind of what I’d like to say is if Jesus were to not have quote unquote, come to the earth in the year zero or whatever calendar that we’re on and in the year 2020 during the pandemic, then what would ministry look like at that point? I mean, sure. You know, maybe Jesus at that point is not going to be infected with coronavirus. See, he can go anywhere he wants to, but at the very same time, what I believe that his ministry was really trying to be all about was listen, I know what it’s been like. Uh, I know how we’ve always had it, but I want to tell you that from now on it’s something else.

And it’s something else that makes sense to you. You know, if you are a tax collector, I’m going to notice you in that tree and I’m going to follow you into your house. If you are a Fisher person I’m going to get in your boat and I’m going to make your nets really full. And if you’re a person that is bleeding and has been bleeding for a long time, that thing that in your life is the biggest concern to you is the place where ongoing to do my work and without using such crazy big theological terms. I just think to myself, well, where is that today? We are Methodists. And we look to John Wesley kind of as a template for how we might, you know, uh, do ministry in whatever era that we are from. There was a long time in which they said, John Wesley, no, thanks.

You’re not welcome inside of our church buildings. And that plus the fact that he had to be quote unquote, according to himself, more vial to begin to do what eventually became known as field preaching and to talk to people on the highways for goodness sake. I think the digital first era is one in which the act of making is central. We keep making something, all of our apps are a lot of our apps, particularly our social media apps are about some kind of making Snapchat just starts off with the camera. Facebook always wants you to post something. Instagram wants you to make images so on and so forth. And I think that, um, when we have kind of a theologically constructivist take on things, it very well may be a central means by which we are able to articulate the existential anxieties that we have as well as our calling out for the kind of quote unquote salvation that we need in the era today. So in that sense, I am really encouraged by the possibilities that we have before us. And honestly speaking, I think that we are really in the nascent stages of what really is possible. Cool.

RD:

So let’s future cast a little bit, then what do you see ministry looking like in the digital first age? What does a digital first ministry look like in two or three years?

JK:

Let’s really do future cast, and let’s really do that. What we have seen in 2020 as kind of a, you know, we are in the DeLorean in 2020, and whether we like it or not, we’re getting to 88 miles per hour. And what we realized was that putting worship on nine is like level zero of what the kind of ministry that can be done. But I would like to say for those of us who are ministry leaders, structurally, here’s how I see it. We are going to, especially if we’ve been paying attention to the studies from pew forum and lately from Gallup, what we will see, I believe our local churches that kind of look like an octopus. You know, there’s may not be any other visual for it, but in the center you have, what’s typically, or traditionally known as a “congregation,” a congregation that’s made up of members.

These members give because they are members and other such reasons, and they keep this thing called the congregation sustainable, but much like we have young people’s ministries like youth group or older people’s ministries, Stephen ministries. These are what I call specialized ministries. And by the way, we don’t really question these ministries, even though they’re not Sunday worship-based ministries, there are legitimate ministries. And I believe that what we will begin to see more and more, if those of us who are willing, ready, and able really take action to do it is a whole bunch of other specialized ministries that are digital first because of two reasons. One is that the more generic you get, the less, it’s going to make sense to people in the United States of America. For the most part, I’m being a little bit too generalizing here, but if you’re in the Midwest or the south, oftentimes church is kind of a thing for you.

If you’re on the left and right coast or the left coast, east coast, not so much. And the more generic that you get, the more that people are able to fill their perception of a ministry or church with whatever it is that they have, which is often not positive. And not only that, which is not fitting into the lives — everyday lives — of everyday people. And so that plus because of the cost structure, there is such a difference in cost structure, what it costs to start up a digital first ministry and to run a digital first ministry, especially in the beginning, you’re going to have lots of opportunities to put out there. Lots of digital first ministries making the octopus have many, many more arms and a typical local church I think is going to have to try and figure that out. And the denomination also is going to have to also figure that out. I have some ideas about that, but that’s what it looks like right now.

RD:

Would it be a sellout to, to share some of those ideas on what some of the different tentacles of the octopus look like?

JK:

No, not at all. I mean, so there are so many things that we can do, but I think a few of them look a little bit like this and, you know, rethink churches cover some of these before that through, um, streaming platforms like Twitch or discord or things like that we can gather around games. And the thing about games on another note is that games, whether we know it or not, uh, are millions, if not billion-dollar investments from the companies who make them and when they make them, it’s not necessarily because of the code that it’s so expensive, it’s that there’s always a narrative to it. And they want the gamer to live into a particular narrative. And that in that sense has a faith element to it, almost a discipleship element to it. What is it that they are becoming? And through that, I think there is ample opportunity to have some reflection, theological reflection, as well as just spiritual impact as to how a person might live their lives.

I think that another way that may be, it might require more than one church, but, you know, the tech industry is one in which this thing called a business accelerator or a startup accelerator kind of became a thing, not within a span of years, but within a span of weeks, they want to have these, this kind of intensive time for people who want to be a business founder to go from idea to launching and so on and so forth. And I think that, uh, one of the things that may be missing in that, that kind of, we hear about every once in a while, is this sense of ethics and not only ethics, but they always talk about it. I believe that business is one of the fields of religion in my mind, but they want people to devote their life to this kind of a thing. And what would it look like if there were people who are of faith, who intentionally through accelerators actually put on by our denomination were to go through these things so that what they come out on the other end are businesses that make a particular impact and so on and so forth. There’s a lot of things that I think that definitely can happen

RD:

I’m intrigued by that relationship between the, the business and ministry. Have you witnessed some places where that is in action now, or some organizations that are putting that in practice?

JK:

Yeah, here’s some examples. I know that there are corporations that will employ chaplains. And I also do know that on the other side of things, there are kind of more evangelical ministries that focus on faith and work. I think that’s even what they’re called faith and work. And then kind of in the, you have these, it kind of, I think a popularize at a certain point with Willow in Illinois, where they would bring in “secular leadership” people to teach ministry leaders. And I think this kind of mix is continuing on with events, such as Q ideas and things like that. These are not necessarily events that really I would like to personally promote, but I would, I would like to point them out are, uh, pretty good examples of the area of business and ministry coming together. And I also think it’s in its nascent stages as well.

RD:

Well, another one of the phrases that you use quite a bit, actually it’s #OwnYourShift. What’s the shift you’re trying to no.

JK:

Okay. So #OwnYourShift is an upcoming campaign pretty much to get change makers, creators, entrepreneurs. My point is that there’s kind of one shift and it’s two sides of the same coin. One is there so many of us that feel a certain kind of conviction and it requires a certain kind of risk-taking activity to see that come about. And we have not owned the fact that we are afraid to do that. And on the other side is of the same coin are a bunch of these entrepreneurs and innovators and sort of “creative” types that are so entitled. And so jerkish in the church and wherever that they are, what this notion of confession needs to bring us to is the fact that yes, it’s great that we consider ourselves as such. It doesn’t mean that we get to do that, but we have to look deep into ourselves as to why we do that. I mean, I have my own experience with it and being that way. Uh, so it’s an upcoming campaign to kind of bring that experience to the center

RD:

When going back to the idea of a digital first ministry, when we start talking about discipleship, the question that a lot of leaders entertain within the churches, digital ministry is a front door, so to speak and maybe even a means for getting people into the building, right? Part of the shift that’s going on is that there are going to be a lot of entities in the future where the in-person is removed. I envision in the future, a doctor’s visit is in person is going to become a pretty rare thing that most of our consults will probably have an online. And then in a special case, we’ll have the in-person visit. And I wonder if in the same way religious catechesis or discipleship processes might work the same way. Do you envision discipleship happening that way? And if so, how do we execute that discipleship? Okay.

JK:

So, um, I’m gonna request that you help me answer both questions. I think there’s about two. One is the focus on the digital as the front door. And then I can’t is the in-person kind of in building kind of a thing. So I don’t want to forget about those two. I think that you’re right. And I think that where we should learn from, in terms of those who have gone ahead of us are what’s often known as the D to C companies, the D to C companies direct to consumer. This is not like a department store that started off with the building and then allow people to purchase things online. These are brands that started totally online. That’s how they started. Like, I think Allbirds would be one, the shoe company, another one is away. But what these companies are telling us and teaching us is that they will start digital first.

They will end up brick and mortar, but they end up brick and mortar for different reasons. They don’t make money from the brick-and-mortar stores. What they do get in having brick and mortar stores is that they get to meet the people who buy their things. And what they use is the term community through their brick-and-mortar stores, they’re able to interact with their community. Now they were saying this a lot about five years ago, maybe even 10. And since then, really the community building platforms have exploded, have exploded. I think a lot of that will happen digital also. But the fact of the matter is in my mind is that as I’ve always been saying, it’s digital first, it’s not digital only. And the key point that I want to make is the direction that it goes into direction. The act of putting a worship service on nine is going from kind of brick and mortar into the digital space.

And I think that what a digital first ministry will do as for a long time, it will be digital first and digital only. And it will produce a lot of content and a lot of media, it will also make a lot of activities available for people to let’s say, do on their own or do together virtually. And then they will, whether we like it or not, they will ultimately meet quote unquote in-person or do things in person. For example, we can’t, you know, have like beach cleanups virtually per se, not until we have remote robots and things like that. I want to say this when it comes to is digital kind of the front door. It’s also one of my projects, but digital is not intentionally the front door anymore, because what I believe is that what the digital first era means theologically is that we are no longer in an ecclesiological era or an era of ecclesiology.

How should the church be structured? I believe that we are in an missiological era or an era of missiology. That means how will the gospel become incarnate when it quote unquote goes to a particular area or a particular place. And I think what digital first ministries existence is telling us is that this is the gospel that has gone and dropped as a seed somewhere or somewhere on the internet or somewhere with people. And people are spreading the seed onto dinner, whatever you want to call it. And this isn’t a time when the sustainability kind of cycle, if you want to call it, that is not with the intention of bringing people into membership — “membership.” What we’ve always had as the incarnation of ministry in the church as an institution. But some other things, it can be membership, but let’s say it’s membership by a subscription, or it can be membership, but it’s one that doesn’t require a class and so on and so forth. Or it can be something that does not require, let’s say something like Baptist. I know I shouldn’t go that far, but so something that requires baptism, at least not in the way that we have known it. So that’s what I think that, that signals.

RD:

Yeah. And it’s fun to think about what our metrics for growth might be in the future 10 years ago, we would think about, well, really our, uh, our measure of what our church is, is, uh, butts in seats on a Sunday morning. I wonder if in the future, like our metric of growth might be email membership list or something like that in terms of how that might then play out in a faith formation standpoint in the digital world. Are there places now that you see where ministries are investing in a process of discipleship in a digital first way, or even in a digital only way?

JK:

Wow, that’s such a good question. Besides rethink church, as you’ve been talking,

RD:

I’ve been, I’ve been entertaining the idea of like, you know, what, if we’re very much a rethink church had been challenged to be the front door, but what if we did shift the focus a little bit to being more about faith formation?

JK:

I think that there are efforts out there. I think that they just have not bubbled up to kind of the attention of people such as myself, but I think that I’m looking for them out there right now. Yeah. I think a lot of it is actually kind of quote unquote secular. A lot of, I think that discipleship is happening in different fields.

RD:

Yeah, no, I’d be interested to find out where some of those organizations are as well in your story. What has led you to where you are now and starting a digital first?

JK:

Yeah, I mean, you know, let’s not make the ordained ministry meeting, but if I were to sum things up, I would say this, I got into the idea of congregational development a long time ago. And at the same time early on, I had this idea that I wanted to start a digital magazine and I actually did it on Tumblr. And I did it with some other people that I met. And eventually I got to a point with it where whenever we said that we wanted writers, we got applicants from four or five different continents, what congregational development and what I was learning there. And my experience with that, uh, building this thing, digital magazine, then one more thing, which is at that time, the notion of design thinking was popularized by the CEO of Ideo, a consultancy. Um, his name is Tim Brown.

He wrote a red covered book called change by design. I read that book and what I saw in it was missiology and they wouldn’t use that term, but that’s what it was. And what began to become something inside of me was how can you put together quote, unquote, congregational development. The very fact that our social media platforms are able to connect us from all different kinds of people, but with content that speaks to the deepest things that we are going through. And the notion of designing things with empathy, with the missiological process. And I thought to myself, this is what ministry is supposed to be like. And most recently I was on conference staff at the California Pacific conference as a director of communications and innovation. And I realized that my interest and my conviction, if I were to try and make it happen in the context of a conference, it’s not a big enough space to get enough people to make something happen.

The only way that I think that I could do that is if I actually go national and kind of be released from the context of a conference, then let’s say, there’s only about 1% of people who are interested. Then you, you do the math in a conference, you have 1% people, or you do the math for the whole country and you try and get 1%. You definitely have more people. And so honestly for the past, um, what am I in like six weeks in now, since I’ve kind of ended my employment there, I have met all different kinds of people who are clergy people, and who are not, who are starting apps and creating content. And they have this whole thing. And I, and I, it’s just a confirmation and a comfort to me that I am not alone and that this is a real thing. So that’s how things came to be

RD:

Right on. We’ve innovated some rights just out of a necessity over the past year in as things are, are settling back, I guess, towards what they were like pre pandemic. I’m a little fearful that some of the innovative bug is going to drop out of the movement that we’ve had that has arisen out of this necessity. So I’m very thankful that organizations like Pastoria around that will, I guess, keep pushing that innovative newness, uh, beyond just the kind of reactive state that we’ve been through over the past 16 months or so. So with large institutions like the United Methodist church, what’s something that we can do on mass in this million person movement that might encourage this kind of innovation. Ryan,

JK:

I’m going to put this in writing at some point. But, um, one thing that I do want to ask our denomination to consider is to think about what it would be like to appoint clergy people and lay people to the internet. The internet is displaced where, you know, those who like it, and those who don’t ministry, there would make sense to both those kinds of people, if you don’t like it, and there’s things so wrong with it, guess what? So is the world, but we still appoint clergy to the world so we can appoint clergy or, or, or lay people to the internet to make it better. And for those who already like it, what 2020 has shown I think is that whether we like it or not, once we put things online, we effectively are appointed to the world. And when we keep on saying, we are making the world, our parish guests, we actually can do that this time. And, uh, so I think that, you know, this is also in our nascent stages, but whatever happens to our denomination, whether we turn into two or three or eight different other groups, the problem that we had, or the condition that we were in pre pandemic of decline has not been addressed by any of that. And we will all need to do that. And I think that one of the things that we should look at is being assigned or appointed to the internet.

RD:

Yeah. Maybe that’s one of these shifts that we need to own. I think about the ways that most churches are organized. If they have a social media presence, usually it’s somebody on the administrative end that oversees it. There is a calling now to consider that digital communication as a means of pastoral extension. Now that’s very good. Uh, where can folks get ahold of you, James, and learn more about Pastoria?

JK:

Thanks so much, Ryan. I mean, people can go to pastoria.co pastoria.com. They can follow us on Instagram @pastoria.co also on Facebook, we’re just coming out or I’m coming out with the next version of the website real soon, but that’s where they can follow along. There’s a link there for a podcast that I’ve been making, honestly, speaking, please don’t judge me on the podcast. I can’t even listen to myself after I’m done with that. We all feel that way. And, uh, and we’ll have a new one soon, but that’s where people can find me. And I hope to hear from all those who, um, a sense, this kind of a call to this kind of then history.

RD:

Again, James Kang’s digital homebase is Pastoria.co. If you want to touch base with me, send an email to [email protected]. You can also find more points of connection at resourceumc.org/digital-parish. Big thanks to ResourceUMC.org for sponsoring this podcast. I had help from Reed Gaines in editing this episode.

If you’d like to offer some thanks for what you hear you can do. So by hitting subscribe to this podcast, then dropping a positive rating or review on your podcast. Listening platform, several episodes of the pastoring, the digital perish podcast are out now, and we’ll be posting a new episode each week until the end of season one in August, but here’s a pro tip. You don’t need to consume these sessions in order. So click on whatever topic interests you and start listening. Thanks again. My name is Ryan Dunn, and I’ll talk with you soon.