Rachel Gilmore and Kristopher Sledge discuss "Followers Under 40" and what the church should understand about communicating with younger generations.
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In this episode
In this episode of the MyCom Church Communications Podcast, we dive deep into the strategies for engaging the younger generation with co-authors Kristopher Sledge and Rachel Gilmore. Discover how churches can effectively connect with younger people by understanding their unique cultural dynamics and communication preferences. As experienced pastors and authors of "Followers Under 40," Kris and Rachel unpack key insights on reaching young adults through authenticity, addressing social issues, and leveraging digital tools.
Kristopher Sledge, lead pastor of the multi-ethnic Journey Church in Harrisburg, PA, and Rachel Gilmore, director of New and Vital Faith for the Desert Southwest Conference, share their insights on understanding youth culture, engaging with social issues, and embracing digital tools. They emphasize the importance of authenticity, listening, and dialogue in reaching the next generation. Both Rachel and Kris consult and coach with the Intersect Co-planting Network. Their book is Followers Under 40.
Key Topics:
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Discover the relationship between the church and young adults, as explored in the book "Followers Under 40" by Kristopher and Rachel.
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Understand how younger generations view themselves as brands and how the church can authentically connect with this perspective.
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Learn practical methods for initiating conversations with young people and creating welcoming spaces for them.
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Explore the role of social and digital media in contemporary ministry and how to make these tools work for your congregation.
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Gain insights into addressing social issues in a way that resonates with younger audiences while fostering human flourishing.
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Episode transcript
Ryan Dunn [00:00:00]:This episode of the MyCOM podcast is brought to you by Celebrate Wonder digital curriculum, which brings bible stories to life with interactive lessons that help kids build stronger relationships with God and each other. Visit cokesburykids.com/celebratewonder to download a sample today. How are we gonna get the young people back in to church? In this episode of the MyCOM Church Communications and Marketing podcast, we're addressing ideas around this, well, seemingly age old question. We're being joined by Christopher Sledge and Rachel Gilmore. They are both pastors and together they authored the book Followers Under 40, which addresses the relationship between the church and young adults. There are some key things that the church needs to understand about our younger generations. And Chris and Rachel will help us begin to look at how these generations relate to institutions and meaning making differently than our previous generations. We're also gonna hear some of their practices that help them connect with younger people, which let's face it, many of us feel really uncomfortable doing.
Ryan Dunn [00:01:19]:
Chris Sledge is the lead pastor of The Journey Church, which is a multi ethnic church in urban Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Rachel Gilmore is the director of New and Vital Faith for the Desert Southwest Conference of the United Methodist Church. She has experience as a church planter and planting consultations as well. If this conversation and conversations like it are valuable to you, then show your appreciation by hitting the subscribe button on your podcast listening platform and leaving a rating and review. That's a big help in bringing my comm to other people who might really benefit from hearing these conversations. So let's get into this conversation here on my comm about understanding youth culture, connecting with social issues, embracing digital tools, and a whole lot more. Rachel and Chris, thank you so much for joining us on the my comm podcast. We're talking about followers 40.
Ryan Dunn [00:02:16]:
And as I was reading through the book, like, I kept thinking about whether or not Jesus ever had to answer questions about getting young people engaged in the ministry. Do you think that Pharisee Pharisaical leaders were, like, posing these questions to Jesus? Like, how do we get more kids?
Kristopher Sledge [00:02:34]:
Okay.
Rachel Gilmore [00:02:35]:
I mean, perhaps. Right? Like, Jesus wasn't trying to bring I mean, there were people to bring to the temple. He was preaching to thousands of people in the Sermon on the Mount and was trying to reach blue collar folks that had day jobs. Right? But I would say, you know, perhaps it was just more culturally appropriate or there was more peer pressure, societal pressure to be a good Jewish boy or girl or person and and engage in the faith, maybe. I mean, I think historically, we've looked at, like, folks just distancing themselves from organized religion. But people I would say something that is the same is folks were ticked off with the way church or religion was done, and they were, disenfranchised, disheartened. And so Jesus literally tried to create, a way of connecting to those who weren't actively, connected to God. Mhmm.
Rachel Gilmore [00:03:31]:
I don't know. Chris, what do you think?
Kristopher Sledge [00:03:33]:
Yeah. So totally, all of that. I also think, I think Jesus had this way, of really, like, lifting up and prioritizing those, from in society we're not normally. So, like, I just think about the story when, you know, Jesus says there's no, let let the kids come to me. Like, I think there there was a way in which Jesus, like, prioritized, lifted up those who were young even when I think the disciples who were pure at heart, right, thought maybe it was distracting or, like, she's had better things to do. Like, she's actually, I think, like, spent some time. So I think in some ways, there maybe have always been this tension around, like, how to faithfully share the story of Jesus with the next generation and doing that in a way that, like, that I think this honoring to Jesus could mean Jesus himself, you know, lift up and prioritize the the conversation of those those who are young. And so so for me, that's I think that's what I would say.
Kristopher Sledge [00:04:22]:
And, like, well, maybe at times, the Pharisees thought or not maybe the disciples thought that, like, it was Jesus too busy for for the adults. But maybe just, you know, just thought, actually, no, I'm gonna prioritize those those who are young, and and they also have a seed. And so we also have to talk about them. We also think about how we can engage them in faith and compassion even for the church today. So I I right now, I don't know. I think that's what I would say to that question.
Ryan Dunn [00:04:45]:
Freinon. Yeah. It it's a great point you bring up, though, about engaging within the culture in the day. In your book, you've noted that young people today really kinda see themselves as having a brand. So in order for us to get to know you here on the MyCOM podcast, how would you describe your your personal brand? Or or we can even branch it out to your ministry's brand. But how would you describe it? Rachel, let's start with you.
Rachel Gilmore [00:05:13]:
Oh, that's okay. Fascinating. I describe my brand. I I think so when I was, in the Peace Corps, they gave me a description at our closing ceremony, that I still think is kind of appropriate. At least people in my church were like, oh, yeah. That sounds like you. So, I was described as the sweetest general you'll ever love. And so Really? Navy? That's kind of my brand.
Rachel Gilmore [00:05:40]:
Or right now, in my role on conference staff in the Desert Southwest, sometimes people call me the annual conference cheerleader. So I would say my brand is kind of like this. I have lots of energy, lots of joy and enthusiasm, and, specifically, I try to, like, funnel that energy and joy into helping people into, like, midwifing connection between others and community. So Wow. That's my brand, I guess. I don't know. What about you, Chris? What's your brand with Enneagram threes?
Kristopher Sledge [00:06:08]:
It is. Rand, I don't really love the question, but I understand that you're submitting that upfront. Right? Yeah. So brand, I I think that there might just be words that I would use to describe, who I think people have said, that I am and and who I want to be on my best days. So I think people accept to me things like, you know, Chris, I think you're, like, charismatic, highly relational, a listener. Right? I I I actually like, maybe a way which I wanna describe that. Like, I wanna be a healing presence in the world. And so even in the midst of conflict or the midst of, you know, just turmoil, like, I wanna be a restorative presence in and to and to help be part of the healing of the world.
Kristopher Sledge [00:06:49]:
But I think really if I I appreciate the way like, Rachel, like, cheerleader, that was one word described to you. Like, I just wanna be an encourager. I think, I recognize I can be pessimistic or we can be pessimistic. I just wanna I wanna be an encourager. So I think I think that's my brand to be an encouraging healer in the world, that probably like, Rachel has a lot of energy and so, cares the the charisma of that. It's just, that that's who I that's who I hope to be. And and and maybe to think about my context, I think that my context sometimes has some flavoring of me as well. And so I think for us, like, how are we just part of the healing, in our particular city and our spot in the world here in Pennsylvania? Mhmm.
Ryan Dunn [00:07:32]:
I appreciate you both not shying away from the question there. Because when we do start throwing around words like brand and branding, it can be a turn off in the church world. But I think the brand is just a way of letting people know who we are. And maybe that's kind of a shortcut way of of speaking about branding.
Rachel Gilmore [00:07:53]:
Who's
Ryan Dunn [00:07:54]:
who? But it's it's there. It's the opening of a relationship. It's letting people know who we are. And churches, I think, sometimes have this fear of maybe wandering away from brand because they don't wanna be pigeonholed. Yeah. And in and of itself, that can be a little, misleading to younger generations. And and that encourages a brand perception that maybe the church is a little bit inauthentic. I'd love to be able to explore a little bit more about how younger people are seeing the church.
Ryan Dunn [00:08:29]:
But I also want to talk about how the church sees younger people themselves. And y'all have encapsulated some of Chris is ready to go on this question. So I don't know. What what are we kind of misunderstanding about younger generations within the, you know, big church?
Kristopher Sledge [00:08:48]:
Yeah. So so a lot. So I'll just start a little bit, and then Rachel can can fill in. I I think part of, one of the ways I would say that that exists is I I think there's a misconception for about young people around, like, religion in general, like, that there's a thought that, like, they're they don't want to engage in in religion. I I think part of what's happening is they don't wanna engage in, like, organized church, big box church, the way in which the church has done done harm, for so I think that's a misconception. I think there's a misconception around technology and the use of technology, the the way in which, they they engage in in that. I think that, like, there's a, like, misconception around, like, work ethic or, they're they're, like, you know, you know, I think about brand language. I I I think I think all of that, actually, and and and I would say, actually, and and I was thinking about this yesterday, like, the the the three emerging generation that we talk about in in in our book, like, I I really think, like, it's their incredible generation that has so much to offer, but, yes, they are distinct than my parents or the generation above because it's a whole different world with technology, terrorism, the globe the global nature of all of it.
Kristopher Sledge [00:09:59]:
I mean, there's a different world that we're living in, and so, I I think they're they're deeply deeply mis misunderstood. And and I think maybe one way to capture that for me is I think the the next generation has a deep sense of, like, wanting some everything to be, like, deeply authentic and and and honest and real, like, fake and, like, things that are inauthentic, I think, will no longer. So so clergy churches that are trying to be someone that they're not Mhmm. Or I I think, like, I think there's a there's a depth in they wanna get beyond, you know, maybe, what what people think, but they wanna go something deeper. I don't know. Rachel Rachel, say help help me out. You you you know as you know you know better than I do.
Rachel Gilmore [00:10:39]:
No. Well, I mean, I I do have a Gen z and a Gen alpha at home, and I'm fascinated daily by them. But I I echo everything you said. I think it's a struggle, for most of our churches because if if you look at the fact that what is it? In Protestant mainline churches, 42% of folks on a Sunday are 65 years old, right, when only seventeen percent of the population in The US is 65. So anyone 40 who walks into a church will automatically feel like a unicorn or, like, an innocent child in a room of vampires, right, that's trying to sustain and extend their life by just sucking the life out of you. Like, join this committee. Be in the bell choir. Like, why don't you help us hand out bulletins because we love using excessive paper every week.
Rachel Gilmore [00:11:29]:
Right? Which, again, with the younger generation, feels like a disconnect. So they come in and they feel like they're being assimilated into not faith necessarily, but a way of living out faith that after the the postlude and the organist is done, like, the lives of the people in the pews don't always show them the teachings of Jesus. And not to be, like, judgmental. We're all struggling to follow Jesus more faithfully. But you just look in the news today. Right? Like, a a bishop says, hey. Let's be merciful to the marginalized, and Christians are freaking out. Like, how dare she say that? And, Christians are freaking out.
Rachel Gilmore [00:12:02]:
Like, how dare she say that? And, so, like, our like, I think younger generations so oh gosh. Okay. I just had this fascinating conversation with my kids because they're like, mom, we only have one more month before we have to listen to this music, and, like, we have to move from, bulking to cutting. And I was like, what on earth to the brand point. Right? Like, it's I don't understand it, but, like, these digital natives were born into a world with limitless possibilities and options. Anything they wanted to know or do, they had access to. And so what they're drawn to is kind of the reverse of us. I was like, oh, I wanna listen to new bands.
Rachel Gilmore [00:12:38]:
I wanna go to new places. And they want more discipline, like, more structure to, like, they've learned the art or the joy in saying, what if I don't what if it's not best for me to access anything I want anytime I want it? Like, to really have a disciplined life that gives me more meaning, that makes it more intentional. So I think to to Chris' point too, they want an authentic life. They want a full and rich life. They are not there about they're not gonna go to church because their boss is sitting in a pew and they wanna get a promotion in their nine to five job that they hate. Like, these younger generations just will not be tied to a life that doesn't feel life giving. And so that's the challenge for churches. Like, what are we doing or offering that can really help transform the lives of younger generations? Most of us don't know how to do that or where to start.
Ryan Dunn [00:13:26]:
Chrissy, in your ministerial context, with Journey Church, I perceive that for if we were to do a comparison chart against most United Methodist congregations, yours would be, on the younger end. Well, how would you say or if you let me just ask this question. How did you reach people?
Kristopher Sledge [00:13:53]:
Great question, Ryan. That is the question, for, you know, for any church right now of how
Ryan Dunn [00:13:58]:
we're gonna be doing it. The relationship? Maybe that's
Rachel Gilmore [00:14:00]:
the question.
Ryan Dunn [00:14:01]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Kristopher Sledge [00:14:01]:
Yeah. So so I I was like to say the stat. Yeah, like, 65 percent of our church is under the 40. And that sounds great in theory, and it has all of its limitations that we can happily talk about, at at some point. But but for me, I I think, the when I when I began leading the journey a couple of years ago, we made some really intentional decisions around, like, asking the question, not what are we going to, like, what are we going to do, but who are we going to be? And so we regularly ask the question around, like, culture. Who are we being in community? And then from there, beginning to decide, well, what will we do? Right? What we do, like, the programmatic side is so, like, it's there at the journey. Like, we're an established church. We have all the things, but the things that we do don't matter as much as who we are.
Kristopher Sledge [00:14:47]:
So some of the things that, like, we really I really care about is, like, I want us to be a church that, like, can engage thoughtfully with with the things that matter in the world. So so, right, one one of the clear things is, like, I'm willing to engage in any conversation on any topic from the pulpit and from the Lord Troop Teachers. Say, how are we helping take what what young people or all people are experiencing day to day in their life? Saturday nights, we're in with their club. Like, when they're at the club on a Saturday night and they're dealing with all these things of the world, drugs and, the the tempt the temp, the the the the thoughts around, like, you know, how to learn how to say no and and and when people try to make advances on you, like, can I can I on Sunday morning help create meaning out of that for their life? And and if I can't as a clergy person, then then the question are like, is this even relevant to my life comes to mind. Right? And so for me, it's like, I'm always thinking, like, how can I help share the old, old story of this Jesus in a way that helps people really create meaning, healing, purpose, structure out of the chaotic world of restoring? So that's that's number one. Number two, the Lewis Center, like, couple years ago, create this great, study that said, you know, those who are the age of 40 or 50, they're really they're much more forgiving when they see young people on the stage. But those who are younger are not so forgiving when they only see those over the age of 50 on the stage from up front. And so for me, I try to orient to say, I want us to when would we having adults? It's like, I have to regularly think about how we're a young adult church.
Kristopher Sledge [00:16:12]:
And that we don't that's not official language, but how am I giving voice to those those who are younger? And so when you come on a Sunday morning, you're gonna see on the stage two, three, four, five people under the 30. Like, I'm the old guy sometimes when it's when I'm on the stage. Right? And I'm in my mid thirties. And so for me, it's like trying to give the keys to this thing called the church, the journey away to to the very people in which we wanna be in relationship, with. I think another thing, that goes back to the thing that matter, is is that we're really willing to engage in in in in, the the social concerns of the day. And so not from a politically correct standpoint. I'm pretty clear about that. Not not even we're not even following the whims of the air, what's going on, but to say, I wanna teach my people how to the theological and biblical structure to how to navigate the social concerns of the day.
Kristopher Sledge [00:17:06]:
And so yeah, so we're willing to talk about all of that. And, yeah, so I think those are a couple of things. Right? I'm I'm not even sure how how even programmatic they are. But but that that's really that's really for for for me. And and and this is the most programmatic thing I'll say, Ryan, is I invest more in kids' ministry than I do anywhere else in our church.
Ryan Dunn [00:17:28]:
Okay.
Kristopher Sledge [00:17:29]:
So I that that's the one clear nugget I might say this. Like, if I wanna be a church that has young families, I need to prioritize and support that. And so we made some hard decisions throughout the years to make sure that our kids' space is is the best space in our entire church.
Ryan Dunn [00:17:42]:
Rachel, as you're consulting with church startups and and new ministries, do you have similar recommendations, like, really paying attention to young people's ministry, kids' ministry, maybe choose a social issue? Or
Rachel Gilmore [00:17:58]:
Actually, if a church wants to try to reach younger generations. Yeah. For me, so because of some of the work that Chris and I do with this group called Intersect, it's a co planting network that really wants to create new ways of doing ministry that are equitable, diverse, innovative, contextual, and post colonial. So my first kind of, encouragement for churches is to live into that post colonial side and don't say, well, if I build it, they will come. Like, they will come to me, and I will show them what faith is and who God is. So I would encourage churches to get out of the church and go listen to the community, put themselves in spaces where young adults, young families, young people, teens are present, like volunteer at a local school, you know, sell hot dogs and nachos at the football game, whatever it might be. And to your point earlier about branding, you know, I encourage these churches to do the ask three challenge. So find three people who are young adults, and you have to meet them within ten minutes of your church building.
Rachel Gilmore [00:19:00]:
So someone at a gas station or your server at a restaurant. Right? And just say, hey, Chris. You know, you've been great at Denny's. Like, if I'm looking for a church on Sunday, where should I go? And see what Chris says if it's, like, crickets, and Chris is like, I don't really go to church. Oh, I'm so sorry. Okay. Thanks for telling me. Is there a reason why or you don't have to share, but just to learn? And And I'm not gonna say, Chris, you should come to first UMC Sunday.
Rachel Gilmore [00:19:22]:
That's the best church. I'm the pastor.
Kristopher Sledge [00:19:23]:
Yes. That's
Rachel Gilmore [00:19:24]:
But if Chris says, oh, well, you know, the Catholic church is amazing because of their issues on this and this or or I love this. So just find out, do they even go to church? If they do, what church would they recommend, and why? And that tells you more about your brand. Like, do people even know you're there? Do they think, oh, gosh. Don't go to First UMC because everyone there is so judgmental or all they want is your money or whatever. But it gives you a starting point for saying, what do I need to change? Like, are there needs in our community around social justice? And so maybe our church needs to have more of a voice or influence in that. In our community, is there nowhere for college students to gather, and we need to create a coffee shop or a third space. Right? So we need to kind of begin by getting out of our walls and connecting with those that we're trying to reach and and really hearing their their needs. One of my favorite quotes from William Temple is the church is the only institution that exists for the benefit of those who are not yet members.
Rachel Gilmore [00:20:22]:
So how do we really make church not about keeping people in the pews happy, but all the people who need to know God's love?
Kristopher Sledge [00:20:29]:
Am I just if it's alright, Rachel, I I think maybe one way in which, maybe we've looped that out that I just appreciate the the one which you've you've named that is, I think, for us at The Journey, like, we're we're pretty, like, city oriented around who we are. And I think one way in which we've been able to be in a relationship with significant number of being adults is I think they want to I mean, I want to be about changing the world by changing lives, to see human flourishing, to have a clear commitment that's external, not internal. Yes. We gather an internal for worship, you know, in our sanctuary. But, really, the orientation is how are we seeking the welfare of the very place in which god has sent us. For us, it's Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. And and I and and something to be part of our part of our racial, research, Rachel, like, felt like I think there's a deep desire to influence the world. I mean, that's the influencer generation.
Kristopher Sledge [00:21:15]:
Right? And so if we can't influence it in a techno technological persuasion, I I think we can do that at living that out of the gospel. Right? And so, and and then creating that kind of safe space internal for people, at least in our part of the world, which is a pretty purple region, to create space for people, like, who are trans, who are, black or queer, to find space that they can wrestle with their faith and their identity in a safe space that that's they can do that. So, I just wanted to add add to that. And I think that, being having a mission beyond yourself, and and to seek the the literal for us, the human flourishing of our city, that there's there's something about that that I think captures why people come to the journey.
Ryan Dunn [00:21:58]:
Within the book, you mentioned several con conversations that you had you both had, with just kind of almost like focus group conversations. So you you brought up eating at Denny's and maybe talking to the waitress, but it sounds like there were several conversations that were a little bit more planned where you're meeting up with young people at a coffee shop. How might a church start to open a conversation in that way as well?
Rachel Gilmore [00:22:24]:
Gosh. I mean, I would say look at your existing church. And if you have some young adults, say so for instance, I don't serve a local church here, but, my husband does, but it's in a retirement town. So you have to be 55 to even buy a home there. So my kids, well, they love the church and yet there is no one young there. So I was like, okay. We have these two teens. They love this one particular coffee shop.
Rachel Gilmore [00:22:49]:
So we go there one Sunday morning a month, and they invite all their friends, and they they'll tell me about their lives, who they're frustrated with, who drove them crazy, or what questions they have. And then at the end, they'll say, what does God think about this? And we'll look at some scriptures together. Back to Chris' point, like, right, like, how how is my life different because I have insight into what God or the word of God says about what I'm going through. So that's the way that we're learning more about what young adults are struggling with, what they need, who they are. So if you have some folks, just figure out where do you like to go and what would you need. Other churches, you know, if there are local fairs or farmers markets and you just, you know, said, hey. I'm here. Have a confessional booth or a way that you can name the harm the church has done, but also invite feedback and honesty about what they need or who they are.
Rachel Gilmore [00:23:44]:
There are lots of just different opportunities or I mean, Brian, I'm such a nerd with this, but, like, there are three forms of anthropological listening you can do. So even if you just went to a coffee shop by yourself and you don't wanna seem weird and creepy like walking up to a table of total strangers, although I did it for the book repeatedly. Hi. But you you could just sit there and and not be creepy, but just listen. Like, who's here? What are they talking about? Yeah. Are they all coming from a Pilates class, or are they grabbing coffee on their way to work construction? And just learn from being present in the spaces around you. I I don't think a lot of our church folk do that. So and I I always remind folks that I talk to in my consulting work, like, just the hardest thing for us is to actually be normal Christians.
Rachel Gilmore [00:24:32]:
Like, just be a normal person and and, like, relatable. Don't don't, like, try to scare people or walk the Romans Road with them five minutes into a conversation because with the younger folks like that, don't do turn or burn stuff with bullhorns. Right? So, I don't know. Yeah. Just try something and and plan on it failing a couple of times and just keep going. Right? You have to be gritty and resilient in this work for sure. I don't know. Chris, thoughts on it?
Kristopher Sledge [00:25:00]:
Yeah. Same. Like, just like I think we've we've we're we've missed the mark of just being a good listener, and to not assume we know anything about our community. So I, like, I I for the first couple years, I just acted like I didn't know anything. I just asked a lot of questions, which maybe I had assumptions, but then I just was able to to listen and then say, like, who else do I need to be listening to and who else do I need to be talking to? And so my first couple years, I was known to be, like, I met with mayor, fire police. Right? Like, like, police. Like, I just like, anyone who would, like, give me an hour to say, I just wanna, like, ask questions around our community, and not afraid to, like, you know, recruit them to church or Romans wrote the fuck. My gosh.
Kristopher Sledge [00:25:39]:
That's, like, haunting the thought of all of that. And and and another so just like that and also, like, just how do we live our life and just, like, as clergy or as leaders, like, it's, like, going to the gym and just, like, making friendships, never for the purpose inviting them to church. And so some of my favorite people in my city, they don't come to my church. Right? I've learned a lot about the nature of this particular place, just from engaging in friendship. Now some of them have come to my church or super encouraging of it, but it's never been about that. And so I think that's like I don't wanna be a church plan that just wants to be build relationships to to grow my number of church members. But I wanna I wanna grow my relationship as a church planter just to learn more and be in relationship with the very people. And then I have language, inside stories, examples to understand this space.
Kristopher Sledge [00:26:24]:
And and and then, Ryan, maybe to say the easiest thing is, like, every congregate in America has children or grandchildren or great grandchildren that they are in regular relationship with. And they don't have that. They have a niece or nephew or a neighbor or someone in their sphere who is younger than they are. I also would just say, how do we ask those who are already in our world to say, if we did this whole church thing over again, if we could start over, what would it look like? There's a there's a humility in that, for that elder to to ask that question. But goodness, if more elder seasoned wise people would ask that question, I think it would radically shape, the church today.
Rachel Gilmore [00:27:03]:
I totally agree. I'm gonna throw in one more thing. Ryan, sorry.
Ryan Dunn [00:27:06]:
Absolutely. Keep it going.
Rachel Gilmore [00:27:08]:
Looking forward to loving us. So, like, I'm just mindful of who might be listening to this. And if you are a pastor in, like, a small aging congregation and you're like, oh my gosh. My people won't change anything. They won't let us do anything differently to reach younger generations. You might feel that way, but but to Chris's point, you talk to aunt Edna, who's a matriarch of the church, and you make a change and do a method church on a Sunday instead of, like, your strict order of worship, and her kids and grandkids actually come with her and enjoy it, aunt Edna is now, like, team captain of young adult ministry. Right? So, yeah, that relational time, like, actually seeing because I think there's a lot of grief. I can't even imagine how sad people are to pour their entire lives into building up this church for their kids and their grandkids, and they want nothing to do with it.
Rachel Gilmore [00:28:00]:
Like, it's heartbreaking. And so we need to name how hard that is and say, gosh. If you do want them there, though, what you built has to maybe be rebuilt. Well, significantly rebuilt. Right? It's not just a a minor change here and there, but but it's doable. And it's for God's kingdom. Right? Like, that's why we're all here.
Ryan Dunn [00:28:17]:
Yeah. Well, thanks for bringing that up because my mind did go to that, that area. You know, your church planners have it so easy, Chris, that you just get to Right.
Kristopher Sledge [00:28:29]:
Try to I'll take that.
Ryan Dunn [00:28:29]:
Dictate how it goes from the get go. Right? Right. In terms of navigating culture to a degree, there's a digital aspect to these younger generations that the church is awakening to, but maybe hasn't grabbed on to yet. Like, we recognize as an institution the need to be in digital spaces. Any kinda mindset that maybe you wanna recommend for some churches or church leaders out there who are thinking about, well, okay. So I'm gonna I know younger folks engage digitally. They even, in they deepen their relationships through through digital means. I would love to be a part of that.
Ryan Dunn [00:29:13]:
Where do I put my foot in the door, so to speak?
Rachel Gilmore [00:29:16]:
That's so good. I think Chris and I might have very different answers on this.
Kristopher Sledge [00:29:19]:
I hope so.
Rachel Gilmore [00:29:20]:
Well, yeah. Interactions with technology. So, I mean, I'm okay. You I think any church now has to have a strong digital footprint. Back to your brand. Right? Like so it all starts with gosh. Do you have a website? And is it, like, stock photos, or is it actual authentic pictures of your folks? Like, is it can you actually navigate it on a iPhone? And if you can't, like so just basic website principles. Higher I mean, my 13 year old daughter is on staff for a nursing home in Illinois, and we live in Arizona, to design their flyers.
Rachel Gilmore [00:29:54]:
And it takes her, like, five minutes, but it would take them fifty hours. Right? So find a young person to help you with branding Yeah. That is authentic and true to who you are, and and be findable. And pick the platforms on social media that align with the age group you're trying to reach. So if you're trying to target a geriatric millennial like me, you wanna use Facebook and Instagram. If you're targeting Gen z, Gen alpha, look at TikTok and what's my presence there. And if you're not ready as a church to have a presence because it would feel fake or contrived, just spend time, you know, on the young side of TikTok and, like, see what they're talking about or what the trends are or whatever it might be. And and then what I encourage folks to do is to to move from your social media space to a parasocial kind of relationship.
Rachel Gilmore [00:30:40]:
So how do I lead it to a level where when they're watching my Facebook live or my TikTok, they feel like they're actually connecting to me and then move it from there to some kind of relational one on one connection through DMs, through Discord, through other ways of really creating belonging and community. Because young people consume technology at ridiculous rates. And you can read the anxious generation, right, and see some of the mental harm that's being done because they're just constantly comparing themselves to all these images, but they are also really longing to be known by people. And a digital space is a great first step, to foster in person or online gatherings where you can make disciples of Jesus Christ for the transformation of the world. So I don't know. Chris, thoughts?
Kristopher Sledge [00:31:30]:
All of that. Yes. Yes. Yes. I I I think maybe the the easiest way for me to articulate this is even to, reimagine, like, how we engage with our community. And maybe the the fancy words, like, pastoral care. Right? And and so I was a good thing about, like, the way in which I engage with my church is not through in per solely in person gatherings and phone calls. Right? I don't think I've called half of my church under the age of 40.
Kristopher Sledge [00:31:57]:
I think they'd be like, stop calling me or texting me. Right? And so for for or
Ryan Dunn [00:32:01]:
at least let me know when you're gonna call me. Right?
Kristopher Sledge [00:32:03]:
Yeah. Right. Right. Like, let's plan it. Yeah. Let's text about it first, figure out the content, and then schedule the call. Right? So so part of it for me is just to to to say and and I'm not like a digital native, like, outside of social media. Like, I don't live my life solely on on technology.
Kristopher Sledge [00:32:18]:
Right? I'm an in person person over a beer or coffee. Like, that is my jam. But I've come to realize that some of my best conversation with folks in in my church, the best way we can engage is through digital means. Right? Instagram, Facebook, and and TikTok and and even YouTube, actually. And so I would echo all of the quality. I think there's a tension, like, I think quality social media. And maybe the thing I like to think about how we use social media, which has been really beautiful is, like, use it as a means to tell our story more than is to advertise events. And so we are quicker to post our images and and quick, little, like, fun little videos that we put together that someone who's a Gen Z on my staff can make.
Kristopher Sledge [00:33:00]:
I don't know how you do it, but she does. And it's not even her paid job. Maybe maybe I should wish it. Her job is not to do technology, but she can make these videos so quickly that I'm like, at this event, make a video. And she does it, and it's like, you make us look so good. So part of it is just like, how do you just tell the story of what God is within your community and the compelling life giving so that's occurring? Put that on social media. Don't simply just put your put your service from the camera in the back of the room on that's all you do. I think we're missing on the beautiful thing.
Kristopher Sledge [00:33:32]:
And then maybe, like Rachel, just find someone who's super young. Give them a thousand dollars to say go do something really quick, and and make something really meaningful, and just to tell tell that story. Yeah. I think that's probably the best that I'm this is so not my wheelhouse, but I'm growing it every day, Ryan.
Ryan Dunn [00:33:48]:
There's something that that's been gnawing at me in talking about social issues and not being afraid to address those. It we brought that up as being a need. I know plenty of church leaders who maybe from maybe more my generation, which is Gen x, or older, who would hear something like that and think, oh my gosh. Like, that is the scariest thing because I know that inevitably, I'm gonna irk somebody. You know, somebody's gonna get offended or feel like I'm not speaking for their needs within that. So how do you kinda navigate that tension of needing to speak towards, some of the more polarizing issues and not being afraid, of moving away from those. And yet, I don't know, not alienating people in the same vein.
Kristopher Sledge [00:34:45]:
Yeah. Is that yeah. So a couple of things.
Ryan Dunn [00:34:49]:
Chris, Rachel, you you too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Kristopher Sledge [00:34:51]:
So okay. So I I'm gonna answer two different it's very two two different ways. Number one, I would say, the conversation around, you know, social concerns I wanna I wanna make sure that we name that often when we talk about social concerns. We're not talking about issues. We're talking about people. And so I would always wanna orient this conversation. We're not talking about an issue that's, like, on the news, but, like, we're talking about people, real lives, right, that are that are being affected by policy or marginalization or whatever it is. So first, we're always in, like, people, and then we have a theology around people.
Kristopher Sledge [00:35:19]:
Right? Grace. Right? Like, we're people of grace. So we're believing that God is going before all people. So so we oriented in that. But, also, I think as we oriented around people is that we we so often, I think the pulp has been the only mechanism that's used to engage in this conversation. And so some of the ways in which we've done it in our context is actually we have something called quarterly deep dives at the at the journey, quarterly deep dives with pastor Chris. And and I and this and we'll take a hot topic, and and we'll spend three hours engaging this hot topic on a Sunday night. And to tell you, Radha, Rachel, like, I'll get a hundred people, hundred adults who are willing to engage quarterly around a deep, conversation.
Kristopher Sledge [00:36:00]:
So we're willing to talk about the topic. Like, woah. Right? Then I'm willing to do my hard work of, like, offering a theological or biblical framework around this topic. Right? Depth content. And then we wrestle for an hour around okay. And let us what do we do together? And so I would I think if we only orient around the pulpit, it never creates this necessary space to be in conversation and dialogue that sometimes topics require. But, again, often if we orange around people. Now one more thing I'll just say is, often, black church has figured this out.
Kristopher Sledge [00:36:37]:
The black church has been the center in the civil rights movement before and now to have a prophetic voice in the world today. And so I would just actually challenge any clergy person who's struggling to say, like, let's look at other models, like, other clergy person, other faith traditions, like the AME tradition, for instance, right, that are siblings to us, is to say how how have they figured it out? And I think, I I think the black church has always understood the tension between social and personal holiness. And I think so often in in in white, Protestant, white united Methodism, it's only been it's only been personal holiness, and I think we've missed something of social. So so I would just say, like, I think there are really good examples out there that are awesome outside of our tradition who've who've navigated this work.
Rachel Gilmore [00:37:19]:
And I echo everything Chris said. Can you see why we wrote a book together? It's like, it's true.
Ryan Dunn [00:37:24]:
Get out of my head.
Kristopher Sledge [00:37:25]:
Yeah. Got it.
Rachel Gilmore [00:37:26]:
Alright. So a couple things I would say is, yeah, it's our history as United Methodist. Right? It was a bunch of college kids going crazy and taking faith seriously that created the denomination that we have today. And and they did it with schools and with helping people when they had a cold and couldn't afford medical care. Right? Like, it's it's not antithetical to our faith. It's like the history and origin of our particular denomination. And then I remind people that for young adults, there are some issue they're not polarizing political issues. They're just right or wrong.
Rachel Gilmore [00:38:03]:
So I you know, from a pulpit, don't say, well, we, gosh. I remember when I was a student at Duke and doing my internship, there is a pastor in North Carolina, Brian, North Carolina. We we shared that history who was like, this president is a baby killer and do not do that. We're not doing that. That's that's to to Chris's pulpit point. But but there are times where like, post 09:11. Right? If a young adult came to church and you didn't mention it or the school shootings in any way and say, gosh, Tragic lives are lost. Like, you know, after Sandy Hook, I'm like, guys, there are Christmas presents under the tree that children, kindergarteners, will not be opening, and that breaks my heart.
Rachel Gilmore [00:38:45]:
It should break our hearts that people are, like, falling apart and should not be harmed like this. Right? So so young adults are gonna come not thinking it's a political issue. It's a life issue. And so if you don't care about it, then you don't care about the things they do, and they they feel more disconnected. And to Chris' point, like, yes. Don't make it pulpit centric necessarily. We would and start with low hanging fruit. Like, one time I preached a a sermon series on justice and and and had different stations, and they could pick one.
Rachel Gilmore [00:39:15]:
And at one of the stations, you're signing a a petition to look at all the indigenous women whose lives were lost and spend more money on, like, helping to solve those crimes. So for some people that might have issues that send them into a tailspin, that was something that was easy to take a stand on. Or there's a pastor in New York, Susan, and every Palm Sunday, because she considers Palm Sunday like a protest for Jesus, right, against the empire. So everyone makes their own protest sign of what they think God is telling us to do in this world, and they put them all out in front of the church. And so it's a way of everyone finding their voice and advocating for the change that they wanna see. So there there are ways to do it that engage the whole congregation. But to your point, Ryan, yes, they're in the bell curve of innovation as we're trying to reach new people in new ways. Like, somewhere between 616% of folks are the never adopters.
Rachel Gilmore [00:40:07]:
They will never ever like change. They will never like anything that you do. They will never like any sermon you preach because that all feels political. And so our willingness to release with love, to entrust those people to God to stay or to find another church home because we won't let them hold the church hostage, when good can be done. So it it's I guess who was it? Mike Slaughter called it, like, holy subtraction or something. So, don't be afraid to lose a few people if, my gosh, you're full of predominantly folks 40 like Christ's church, and therefore, it might be open long enough for your funeral to be celebrated there. I don't know. It's it's a harsh reality, friends, but we're in that place.
Rachel Gilmore [00:40:49]:
I don't know.
Kristopher Sledge [00:40:50]:
It it it it is because, is it fair to say, Rachel, that, for for some of these young adults, like, it's it's their their lives are being affected by what's occurring. And so for some, they're just looking for a religious spiritual leader to give hope and healing and redemption to to their lived if it's not theirs, their community, their friends, or or what their their their generation is experiencing. And so some, it's like, it would almost feel irrelevant if you don't. I mean, you were you were saying that around that. And and maybe, Ryan, it's like, can we also just read the gospels and read the beatitudes, and and read the Sermon on the Mount? Like, part of this, I would just say is, like, it's deeply theological. And can we just allow can we just read scripture? And can we just have it read in our churches? And to not try to, like, argue ourselves out of the radical nature of it, but just to say, wow. Like, Jesus was really the great leveler. He brought down the know it alls and lifted up those who'd never felt they had worth.
Kristopher Sledge [00:41:51]:
And so, like, I can't do we have a theology, in a biblical and can we just allow the biblical text to live on its own because it's and beautiful?
Rachel Gilmore [00:42:01]:
Okay. I totally agree. And the last Luanna's Coffee Church I did with my kids and their friends, we read the beatitudes. And I was like, what do you think that means? And it was, like, mind blowing for them. Like, didn't talk much. Like, just, you know, read scripture. It's insane. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be felt like are we hungering and thirsting for righteousness? I don't know.
Kristopher Sledge [00:42:24]:
Yes. We
Rachel Gilmore [00:42:24]:
should. But, anyways Okay.
Kristopher Sledge [00:42:26]:
We're going to church, Ryan. That's okay. Can you talk
Rachel Gilmore [00:42:28]:
to me, Elnessa?
Ryan Dunn [00:42:29]:
In our next episode, we're gonna be talking with Chris Chris and Rachel about, why you can decentralize the sermon and, just move the conversations. It'll be good.
Kristopher Sledge [00:42:41]:
Love it.
Ryan Dunn [00:42:43]:
Cool. Chris and Rachel, thank you so much for sharing your, your conversations with us and your own experiences. So much appreciated. Really appreciate you coming on to mycom podcast.
Rachel Gilmore [00:42:54]:
Thank you. Thank you, Ryan.
Kristopher Sledge [00:42:56]:
Thanks for the invite, Ryan.
Rachel Gilmore [00:42:57]:
Awesome. Yay.
Ryan Dunn [00:42:58]:
And thanks to our sponsor for making this episode possible. Children are the heart of your church's ministry, but you have to cultivate their spiritual journeys in a way that speaks to every child, no matter their age or background. Celebrate wonder all ages digital curriculum helps create meaningful faith filled experiences by bringing unforgettable bible stories to life along with introducing spiritual practices. Our bundles make adapting lessons simple, which saves planning. Visit coaksburykids.com slash celebrate wonder today to learn more. Okay. What's next? Are you planning your next move? If you're feeling inspired, well, you can check out another MyCOM episode. Episode 98 shares the story of a church meeting young people where they are in digital space.
Ryan Dunn [00:43:46]:
Good follow-up for this one. The episode entitled connecting with the disabled community might be a useful follow-up here as well. I'm Ryan Dunn. I'm looking forward to connecting with you again through episode number 105 of the MICOM podcast that's due out in one month's time. Find more MICOM in the meantime through resourceumc.org. That's your spot for fresh ideas and empowerment for church leadership. So I'll talk to you again very soon. In the meantime, peace.