Digital Parish: Navigating the Digital Reformation with Ryan Panzer

Ryan Dunn (00:00):

Church will be at its best when we begin our conversations on technology, not with apps or it infrastructure, but with culture, that's a quote from Ryan Panzer, who is our adjunct professor on this session of pastoring in the digital parish. Ryan has formerly worked at innovative companies like Google. You may have heard of them and Zendesk while also staying heavily involved in the church and faith development. He has brought these two spheres together as he pursues a call to build a bridge really between tech and church exploring what it means to do effective ministry in digital culture. Ryan Panzer is author of grace and gigabytes and the upcoming, the holy and the hybrid. And in this session, we're gonna explore together the digital reformation that is overtaking our culture and really infiltrating our churches. Ryan shares how the church can bridge the analog and the digital as well as offering some speculation on the church of the future.

Ryan Dunn (01:02):

My name is also Ryan I'm, Ryan Dunn, the host of pastoring in the digital parish and a fellow practitioner of digital ministry in pastoring in the digital parish is your resource and connection for growing faith communities in the digital world. We've take off season four, and this is one of three episodes that we've released to start the season. The other two, both compliment this session incredibly well as Andrew Root gave us some diagnosis of digital culture. And Shamika Klassen provided ideas for embracing technology while offering grace and dignity and alleviating anxiety. So don't stop with this session, but before you click away, let's get to know Ryan Panzer on pastoring in the digital parish.

Ryan Panzer. We're so pleased to have you on pastoring in the digital parish. I hope you're doing well today.

Ryan Panzer (01:53):

Hey, thanks, Ryan. It's great to be here. Thank you so much for the invitation.

Ryan Dunn (01:58):

You bet. Well, I wanna set the table for us a little bit in our conversation. Why is it so important for church leaders to understand digital culture here in 2022?

Ryan Panzer (02:10):

Well, the, the main reason is that digital culture and digital technology are, are two different things. You know, when, when, when you look at the ways that digital technology is influencing the way we think, the way we learn, the way we relate to one another this is a steady and ongoing and accelerating change. That's really going to have dramatic effects on what it means to be a church leader for years and decades to come. And I separate that out from digital technologies because, you know, if you look at the MySpace and the Napsters of, of, of the past, you know, digital technology has a remarkably short shelf life and it's getting shorter and shorter with each passing year. So one of the first things I talked to church leaders about is to, to think less about the apps and the tools that you're using to do digital ministry, and to think more about how digital technology brings us together, the ways we relate to one another differently while online, because those are the questions that are going to linger that are going to matter, even after the apps that are on all of our phones right now have gone bankrupt and been acquired by some other company.

Ryan Dunn (03:23):

Yeah. <Laugh> well, unpack that for us a little bit. Like what are some of the ways that we are relating differently now in a digital culture?

Ryan Panzer (03:31):

Sure. Well, you know, if you think about just the, the, the interactions that people tend to have in digital spaces, a lot of them have to do with questions and, and, and discussion and conversation. And so the, the digital age gives us these platforms where you can more easily than ever have multi-directional conversations with communities that may never set foot in the same physical space. You know, a really good example of this is a slack channel where you have all these people who have never met coming together around a common topic, sharing reactions, ideas questions, things that are on their mind. And so that is the structure of how communication really works in a digital age. That's quite a bit different from if you think about the way churches have evolved to operate, you know, if you look at churches from the, the era of the Protestant reformation with the pulpits, you know, several feet above all of the rows of pews, it was a very much, a one way flow of, of, of information where information will flow from a preacher to an audience of, of passive receivers.

Ryan Panzer (04:44):

So that's something that we need to be cognizant of that communication itself has, has changed. And the way folks expect to be in community to be involved in the dialogue has changed. And, and that's going to have implications for what it means to live, to lead Christian community.

Ryan Dunn (05:00):

Mm. It seems like Wikipedia might be a good analogy for this. Do you think that's fair where we have kind of the, almost the user generated or, you know, at least communal type information process?

Ryan Panzer (05:14):

Yeah, I think actually Wikipedia is an excellent analog, both in what it says about, what's great about digital spaces, where anyone can contribute their expertise. And also what's not so great where you can contribute things that are flat out wrong that fly in the face of conventional wisdom or, or facts. And I think Wikipedia writes large some of the challenges and not just some of the benefits of the stitch age.

Ryan Dunn (05:40):

Hmm. And we both come out of traditions where the, the training for leadership is, is pretty heavy duty in terms of who gets vested with authority within the church. So do you see that changing a little bit in digital culture? Like is the authority vested by a denomination per se, really that important to people living in a digital first

Ryan Panzer (06:02):

Stage? I, I think a lot of Senate ju churchwide bodies are trying to figure out that same question, wrestle with it right now. Certainly we're living in a time where job titling and credentialing just doesn't mean what it used to in an age where a 16 year old with a Twitch account can have as many followers as, you know, an established pastor with a, a healthy and vibrant church following. So it certainly presents some, some challenges. I think perhaps one of the pivotal shifts in church leadership is that it's less important to perhaps be a source of authority and more important to be fluent in convening and moderating conversations. There's a resource I like to point folks to, it was created by Kyle Oliver and a few of the folks at Virginia theological seminary, which is a, a, a ministry of the Episcopal church it's called the digital literacy toolkit. Now, what it, what, what, what Kyle and company did is they, they looked at all of the skills that church leaders might need for a digital age. And one of the skills that they recommend, one of the literacies they recommend is becoming fluent in convening digital conversations. That means knowing what questions to ask on what platforms, how to moderate the conversations when there's no engagement or when they veer off course and how to ultimately connect folks across time and space.

Ryan Dunn (07:35):

Yeah. That <laugh>, so I'm, I'm tweaked then, because I I've had a few let's say a few conversations that didn't seem to garner much engagement. Yeah. What were some of their suggestions?

Ryan Panzer (07:49):

Well, I, I think one of the, one of the common traits you would find within those recommendations is just to have a certain resilience to understand that most conversations are, are likely to falter. I, I, I found some statistic recently about the number of podcast episodes that are never downloaded. And it's something like 60% or more of episodes wow. Are never even listened to. And so I, I, the default experience online is actually not one of viral videos and TikTok millionaires. It's one of working really hard to create something thoughtful and having no one show up to the conversation.

Ryan Dunn (08:29):

Yeah. <Laugh>, it can be a bit like sermon generating. Like

Ryan Panzer (08:32):

It can be, yeah, my,

Ryan Dunn (08:33):

My experience, you know, you work totally hard on a sermon and you're, you're ready to go and you present your sermon and you think I just nailed it and nobody responds. And then the Sunday where you were like, I just wrestled a bear. I don't know what I said, people are like, that is just what I needed to hear

Ryan Panzer (08:50):

Today. That, that spoke to me at a very deep level. Yeah, yeah. Have certainly been there myself.

Ryan Dunn (08:56):

Well, we're in this period of change, you used the, the phrase digital reformation to describe this, this period that we're in within the church, what are some symptoms or some key takeaways of the digital reformation?

Ryan Panzer (09:11):

Sure. So I, I, I actually didn't come up with this term. The, the term was coined by a professor named Elizabeth Drescher and she's written a great deal a about ministry in a digital age. She has a fantastic book called choosing our religion, which is about the, the, the spiritual lives of, of America's nuns and millennials and gen Z fascinating read. But she kind of helped me to think about the digital reformation as a, a, a turning of the church to recognizing a different sense of place within our, within our communities. And so it changed from our communities being rooted in a physical neighborhood place to being rooted in a both end that's online and offline simultaneously. And so when you think about what is actually being reformed or remade, you know, more so than any streaming technologies or social media, what's really being remade is our sense of where ministry happens of the sites, where, where, where ministry conversations take place, where worship occurs.

Ryan Panzer (10:16):

And increasingly that, that reformation is moving us into a, both and world online and, and offline reformations are a bit dizzying. They, they move quickly and oftentimes they move faster than you know, faster than we can sort out all of the implications. And so one of the questions that most church leaders are thinking through right now is, well, my, my attendance in the sanctuary is 30 to 40% what it was in March, 2020. What do I make of that? And that's really that, that that, that pull of playfulness, that change in the place where our ministry happens that is not an easy place to be. It's not a comfortable place to be, to be asking that question. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>, and, and so reformation, I think is, is a word that I use with a bit of hesitancy, because in some ways it almost seems like it's meant to be uplifting and positive. There are some positive aspects of it, but unfortunately the reality of going through a time like this, it can be unsettling and disruptive to a lot of our community.

Ryan Dunn (11:32):

Yeah. There was an opinion piece that my organization United Methodist communications recently published that was really reflective of that this opinion piece suggested that the church has a call to pull people off of their devices. A sense that you might disagree with that a little bit. Why might we need to be cautious about that kind of statement?

Ryan Panzer (11:54):

Well, I think the statement is valid in certain cases, you know, I, I, sure, when I was, when I was in college, I worked at an outdoor summer camp. We had a strict, no phones policy, and it was the best week of the summer for every kid who showed up. And, and I think they would be reluctant to give up their phones at the start of the week. And mm-hmm, <affirmative> would be reluctant to turn them back on once they were given back at the end of the week. The, the question of, of how we plug in is, is very important right now, both for our leaders and, and, and our communities alike. We should be thinking about what are the moments where it makes sense to have some digital integration and where we need to promote a sense of digital Sabbath or unplugging completely.

Ryan Panzer (12:39):

One thing I found pretty cool is when I I've sent, you know, social media messages to some of the, the pastors who have big followings on Instagram and, and Twitter. And how is just, I like to ask him for tips or suggestions or ideas, and one of the things that they, they share with me almost every time is they have a commitment to digital Sabbath to unplugging themselves. Usually it's Sunday after, after worship, where they, they just turn all of their devices off, you know, there, there's gonna be a time for creating blog posts and podcasts and creating TAC videos where you dress up in clerical garb and, and you know, and such, but we're a church community that, that needs to figure out a sense of rest, a sense of disconnect as well. That's that that's Sabbath rhythm, that's grounded in all of creation. So I, I, I think the, the advice to disconnect from our devices is wise in certain, in a certain, in a certain sense, I think what needs to be added to it is, but in what moments, you know, and figuring that out,

Ryan Dunn (13:49):

Those pastors who you were soliciting, some information from, have they ever been, or indicated any kind of criteria or guidelines about oversharing?

Ryan Panzer (14:01):

You know, what's interesting is I I come from a tradition where when, when, when Facebook just launched, I was working as a youth ministry intern, and I went to a Senate assembly. So the, the Lutheran world, we have these big Senate assemblies and Facebook, you know, at the time every high school kid had already adopted Facebook. And, and the, the convener of the assembly was talking about trends in ministry. And she asked everybody to raise their hand if they had a Facebook page. And, you know, in this room of maybe 400 pastors and church leaders, this is back in 2007, you maybe had two or three that, that raised their hands. And I think perhaps too often were too slow to, to try technologies. And we don't we actually share too little in, in a sense that we, we don't, we don't engage the platform at all.

Ryan Panzer (14:57):

Tiktok is a, is a perfect example of this. A lot of churches don't have a, a strategy for TikTok. So as a result, they're not doing TikTok, you know, in some ways it's not a time to have a strategy, it's time to be playful and, and creative and see what you can come up with. But I think people you asked about oversharing and, you know, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, I've also experienced the other side of this, where pastors have seen their communities damaged by things that were shared that maybe didn't belong in, in, in a community. So going back to some of Kyle Oliver's work with that digital literacy toolkit it also talks about being spiritually wise and discerning about what and when to share something online.

Ryan Dunn (15:40):

<Laugh> I was resonating with what you were saying about TikTok is, is church has opened up to the idea of jumping onto TikTok. I've interviewed a number of people who have had some success on TikTok and nearly 100% of 'em have said, when I got onto TikTok, I had no idea what I was doing. Correct. You know, I was just there kind of playing around with it. I didn't know what I would use it for. So there is that invitation to just kind of get in and get involved in to try and accept some failures along the way. And yet still to go for it, you've shared some great thoughts about creating digital community. What are some of the things that you've noticed that churches miss when they seek to create communities online?

Ryan Panzer (16:28):

Well, I think one of the ideas that is still around is that community can easily be invented online. Like if we just create a Facebook group, people will show up for the conversation. And so one of the things I've I, I read about in the first book, Grayson gigabytes is how, what often precedes digital community is some form of analog interaction. And I tell some stories of congregations who have done things like a food truck ministry, or a coffee shop ministry, and use that as the, you know, launching pad for digital conversations. The, the content saturation online is, is, is significant. And there's many conversations that folks can plug into. And so if we think that if we just create this page, we create this resource and people are going to appear there. I think we're likely to be to, to, to not see much traction with that.

Ryan Panzer (17:29):

So think about what analog or physical antied or things need to happen before you create the digital community. The other thing too, that I think is useful is, is specificity and identity. When, when folks go online they're often looking for something that's highly specific. That's the reason why literary TikTok is so popular. Like one of the most, one of the most vibrant communities on TikTok is people who like to read very literary authors book nerds like myself. And it's a very specific audience. That's seeking out something very specific, which is reviews of literary fiction. When we create community, you know, creating Christian communi is quite a broad concept. What type of Christian community do you want to create? What do you wanna be known for and who, who could be part of that, that community. These are, these are questions we should be asking.

Ryan Dunn (18:24):

So it sounds like a, almost identifying a niche,

Ryan Panzer (18:27):

Correct? Yeah. The, the more niche our digital community becomes, the more vibrant it's likely to be.

Ryan Dunn (18:34):

Hmm. And the promise that comes with that then is that we can also provide some guidelines around those communities as well, which helps us assuage some of the fears that we might have in engaging in social media. Right? Because there are all these ideas about how social media can be divisive. We get trolled. People just wanna have arguments, but if we're able to be niche, then we can say, for example, Hey, this is a community in which we talk about literary fiction. <Laugh> correct.

Ryan Panzer (19:07):

And

Ryan Dunn (19:08):

That, that's where we guide this. We can, you know, for a church world, we may wanna say, this is where we talk about literary fiction through the lens of the gospel, or we wanna keep our posts centered on that. So that, that gives us a bit of a safer space which actually encourages more conversation, I believe.

Ryan Panzer (19:27):

Yeah. That's I I've seen countless examples of, of, of what you just described in social media channels. It that is a act of bravery to step into that space and say, actually, this is the conversation we we've, we've stepped under this platform to have other conversations we we'll pivot away from. So ha having some clarity into what type of community we're going to create is useful. The design thinking process is a great methodology for discerning the type of community that you're seeking to create. And if you're not familiar with design thinking, it's a methodology that has its roots at Stanford university and a, a firm called I, I D E O it, it looks at a process of empathizing and understanding needs and requirements and shaping some kind of experience and reaction to that. It's a, it's a brilliant design methodology that can be used in all, all types of settings and organizations. And a lot of churches are starting to turn to that as they think about what they want to create for the future.

Ryan Dunn (20:39):

In developing these communities, you talked about almost having an impulse that begins in the analog. That's where you begin to, I guess, build the, the inertia. Have you seen some creative ways that churches are bridging the analog in the digital?

Ryan Panzer (20:56):

Well, yes. In, I've also seen a lot of ways that have led to frustration and maybe I'll speak to that first. I, I think the, what leads to frustration is where we assume that everything analog also needs to be digital. And so we'd love our multimedia equipment to the park for church in the park, or we put a laptop on the bar for beers and vitals and the experience isn't great for anybody involved. So the, the first step in knowing the way to build bridges between analog and physical is knowing where you're not going to attempt to build bridges between analog and in digital. Mm. And once you figured out what you're gonna say no to, it becomes easier to say yes to a, a few things that are more strategic or, or of, of, of, of greater importance. I'm just starting a, a little bit of a pilot program at the church I work with here in Wisconsin, where we're going to try to create through our, our preaching some digital content that is shared Monday through Friday after a sermon is preached.

Ryan Panzer (22:03):

So we can go back to some of the themes that were introduced in the sermon and introduced through that week's gospel message. And it kind of expand on them through blog posts and social media, maybe some digital video it, it's still in an early stage, but that's one of those examples, you know, maybe your worship is live streamed. Maybe it's not, but you most churches have a sermon on Sunday. How can you create short snippets of digital contents that remind folks of the messages that add to them that bring in perspectives you weren't able to bring in on Sunday morning?

Ryan Dunn (22:38):

Yeah. And I love that idea because it it's, it's so accessible in terms of being with people all the time, maybe prior to 2020, many of us in ministry lamented, that we had such a finite amount of time to be with people and to build relationships with people mm-hmm <affirmative> often now was just defined by the Sunday morning event, right. We had an hour to 90 minutes to actually spend with people. Well, the digital world opens us up to being able to asynchronously be present with people,

Ryan Panzer (23:11):

Correct.

Ryan Dunn (23:12):

All week long. And there is a great way of, of kind of revisiting our, our common shared time throughout the week as well. And those bonds of relationships grow stronger through that.

Ryan Panzer (23:24):

Absolutely.

Ryan Dunn (23:27):

As you're, as you're building this, this system out with your church, it sounds like what you're doing is you're taking the, the video from the Sunday sermon and carving up some snippets out of that. Is that something that the pastor has to do do, or is there a team that comes behind something

Ryan Panzer (23:47):

Like that? So, so good question. So the, the church where I attend with my family is, you know, fortunate to have a, a media team with some interns who are, are, are part of that process. The, the, the question I often get is, you know, what do you, what do you do about the church that has a staff of one, and how do, how do you make that work? Well, a couple of just very practical ideas, one of which is understand what technologies can help to automate this work. The, the, the, the pan tilt zoom camera has been a true game changer for live streaming worship services, because nobody needs to look into the camera as they record. In fact, it can even track your movements across the sanctuary. If you, if you wear a, a special tracker that a lot of them, a lot of those cameras now come with we're also living in the gig economy websites like fiber offer freelancers who are willing to support our content development efforts often at a fraction of the cost of hiring a, a full-time employee.

Ryan Panzer (24:56):

Sometimes it's just somebody who's looking for some side income somebody, sometimes it's folks who, who do this for, for full-time employment. But there's, we now have an entire marketplace of media professionals who can, who can assist with that work. The thing I'll say is churches, I think sometimes look at this conversation as how do I create all this new content? And we are a tradition that is already inundated with contents. If you got a 12, if you got a 12 to 20 minute sermon, you have pages and pages of contents. Jim ke who's one of my favorite influencers in the world of digital ministry, advises churches to say, look at your sermon texts, copy, and paste a few lines you like and make Facebook posts out of it. There's your future of digital content.

Ryan Dunn (25:48):

Yeah. <laugh> yeah, that's good. Yeah, because I think another, one of the fears that we have in terms of digital ministry is that it feels like it's adding so much more to the plate. And if you're a solo pastor, the plate's already full, right. So having to think, oh, well, now I have to care for almost the split campus of a digital ministry feels daunting to the point that we just don't have the bandwidth personally, to engage in that. So using that idea that, Hey, here is a way for us to advance in ministry based on the content that we've already spent hours creating and being able to use that, to continue our relationship with people beyond our Sunday morning event is, is crucial. I love that idea.

Ryan Panzer (26:34):

And it's, it's just so interesting how when we talk about hybrid or digital, everybody immediately jumps to the assumption that we always have to be online with everything we do, that every worship service needs a live stream. If you really think about what hybrid ministry is all about, it's, it's creating ministry connections in analog and cyberspace. You can do that with one Facebook post a week. You don't have to live stream your, your, your worship service in its entirety. So the, the, the art of saying no of stepping back from what doesn't feel like we have the bandwidth for is an essential ministry and leadership skill for this time we're, we're navigating.

Ryan Dunn (27:19):

Hmm. Do you have some criteria that you think about in terms of what makes for good digital ministry and what makes for good analog ministry?

Ryan Panzer (27:29):

Yeah, it,

Ryan Dunn (27:30):

It, let me clarify that question a little bit, sorry. In terms of how how you think about what you're gonna share in digital space and what just needs to stay in analog space.

Ryan Panzer (27:43):

It, it's a very good question. You know, the, the best example I can come up with is still the outdoor camping ministry is like, yeah. And even then at the camp I worked at now has a podcast that that's, I think, a really good podcast. So maybe that's not even as as much of an example as, as what it was it's difficult to say, you know, full stop. This is what should be online. This is what should be offline. Some churches have said these are embodied practices. These need to be offline yet when you are doing something physically or virtually, you are still an embodied being mm-hmm <affirmative> and walking, walking around the neighborhood is you listen to a podcast devotion on you know through your, through your AirPods is, is still an embodied act. So it's really difficult to say, categorically, this belongs online, this belongs offline. I think rather than saying prescriptively, this is what should be online. This is what should be offline. We should be thinking about what questions we should ask ourselves as a community to discern just that. And if we can become practiced in the art of discernment and asking those questions, we can discover how we can answer that in the particularities of, of our ministry. Hmm.

Ryan Dunn (29:02):

You, you, do you wrote about putting the digital participant within the front row. Is that something that you consider when you think about like what belongs in digital space?

Ryan Panzer (29:13):

Yeah, certainly the, the pre pandemic digital experience was the back row visitor who always had the back row, or even the balcony vantage point on worship as it was recorded. And so the, the, what I was getting at with the book is if you're going to do something digital, how can you integrate a virtual community in a way that makes them feel like like they have a front row seat. And maybe that is like, as, as tangible as your video production, and you're gonna put a camera in the front pew. And that way somebody watching online does in fact have a front row seat on, on the worship service. But it could also be thinking about there might be aspects of your ministry that are better when they're done digitally book discussions are a great example part of a congregation where we had our highest ever attendance at book discussions during COVID, because people you put the kids to bed were able to jump on zoom at eight o'clock to talk about a book. And so when you think about that front row seat, you might also ask yourself the question, are there aspects of our life together that are best held digitally? And that we, we may, we may not even need an analog component for Hmm.

Ryan Dunn (30:32):

That's good. Well, I feel like we are, I mean, certainly we're in the midst of the digital reformation. I feel like this reformation is gonna continue on for a little while. So as you put on your prognosticator hat, how is ministry, I guess, even professional ministry gonna look different in five years?

Ryan Panzer (30:53):

Well, the idea of a reformation is that it's an ongoing process and, you know, might take decades if not hundreds of years to, to fully work itself out. But when we look at like five years ahead, one thing that I, I won't predict, but I'll say it's a hope of mine is that churches and resource and Andies and senates and churchwide bodies will become more collaborative and less siloed. We saw during COVID how some churches would bring in a preacher from across the country to preach on a particular topic or bishops who are participating on on zoom worship, like they'd never done before in some cases. And so it opened a digital offers this ability to to collaborate. And co-create like, we haven't experienced before in the church in the next five years. I'd like to see us get a lot more fluent and regular at doing just that at reaching out at building connections and understanding who we can invite into the conversation that maybe wouldn't have been invited previously. I, I, I don't know at a very concrete level what that's going to look like, but if we figure out how to share resources more effectively, then it addresses that question of sustainability and burnout and perhaps gives ourselves a reprieve from some of the feeling of, I just have so much to do all the time.

Ryan Dunn (32:17):

Yeah. Yeah. The, the sense of invitation gets broader, I think. Yeah. And also there are a couple really exciting things about that. I mean, first is for the solo pastor who feels the pressure of having to prepare something fresh every week that maybe now can say, well, my friend from seminary who is several states, several states away can actually offer a sermon for me this week, but also we have a chance to diversify, you know, the famous Quip from Martin Luther king Jr. That Sunday morning is the, the most least diverse or most segregated hour, hour.

Ryan Panzer (32:57):

Yeah,

Ryan Dunn (32:57):

Yeah. Of of the week. We have a chance now to, to maybe chique at that a little bit, <laugh> put some cracks in that, by who being very deliberate and who we invite to, to come before our, our congregations.

Ryan Panzer (33:12):

Absolutely. Yeah, certainly. Yeah.

Ryan Dunn (33:16):

Well, Ryan, what's coming next for you.

Ryan Panzer (33:19):

Well, the, the, the book is coming out September 27th, that, that, that that's titled the holy and the hybrid navigating the church's digital reformation. It's not about hybrid vehicles. It's about hybrid ministry <laugh> and it's just a short, accessible guide to navigating this both and church landscape. I'm also really excited to kick off this pilot at my church here in Madison, Wisconsin, where we're going to be experimenting with integrating some digital content with some of the, the questions we're first asking through, through, through preaching. So it's, it's an exciting time. I'll also continue to to, to write and, and company churches, as they ask some of these questions.

Ryan Dunn (34:00):

Cool. And as they do come up with questions, where can they get ahold of you?

Ryan Panzer (34:05):

Just hop onto my website, www.ryanPanzer.com. You there's, there's a contact me form. I, I love getting questions, comments, feedback, criticism it, sometimes those who disagree with the ideas in the book that I have the best conversations with. So please let me know what you think and would love to be in conversation.

Ryan Dunn (34:27):

Cool. Well, Ryan, Panzer thank you so much for giving this time to us today and for sharing a little bit about the holy and the hybrid and what the pastorate is gonna look like in a few years.

Ryan Panzer (34:38):

Thank you, Ryan. Great to be here.

Ryan Dunn (34:41):

All right, friend, if this session was meaningful for you, the best thing that you can do is to listen to another episode. Certainly the other releases at the beginning of season four here, compliment this episode really well.

I'm Ryan Dunn. I would like to thank resourceUMC.org, the online destination for leaders throughout the United Methodist church. They make this podcast possible. And of course they host our website PastoringInTheDigitalParish.com, where you can find more online resources for ministry. If you want to connect, check out our Pastoring in the Digital Parish group on Facebook, you can also send me questions and ideas for future sessions at [email protected]. I'll speak with you again in a new episode next week, in the meantime, peace to you.