Engaging the Digital Parish: How it Started and How it's Going with Jevon Caldwell-Gross

Ryan Dunn [00:00:01]:

Welcome back to another episode of pastoring in the digital parachute resource and point of connection For building your digital ministry toolkit and bringing your congregation into the digital age, this is our last episode of season 6. So we'll be taking a break for a a couple of months, following this incredibly informative and inspiring session. I'm your host Ryan Dunn, and today, we are thrilled to welcome Jevon called Well Groat. a seasoned pastor and fellow practitioner in digital ministry. In this episode, we dive deep into how it all started and how it's going. with pastor Jay And Digital Midstream. We explore the challenges and opportunities of reaching people outside of Sunday mornings and implementing strategies like master classes. Pastor Jay shares invaluable insights on adapting preaching styles to engage the online audience, the importance of creating content beyond traditional services, the power of master classes, and the need for pastors to learn how to reach people through various digital platforms. So stay tuned as we explore the fascinating journey of Jevon Caldwell Gross and discover how digital ministry is shaping the future of the church. This session of pastoring in the digital parish is presented by safer sanctuaries, nurturing trust within faith communities, That's a new and comprehensive resource that continues the tradition of safe sanctuary's ministry by building on his trusted policies and procedures. To learn more, go to safersanctuaries.org or give them a call 1809720433. Here's some info on our special guest for this session. The Reverend Doctor Jevon Caldwell Gross has been a transformational ministry thought leader for over a decade, serving in a variety of contexts ranging from urban cities to multicultural suburban communities Pastor Jay is known for his ability to connect with different audiences and make the gospel accessible and practical. Pastor Jay's journey has brought him to 1 of the largest United Methodist churches in the country, St. Luke's United Methodist church located in Indianapolis, Indiana. There he serves as the teaching pastor and the online campus pastor. As a pastor, author and professor, his mission is and always has been to equip churches and congregational leaders for relevant and effective ministry in a rapidly changing society. He's got a lot of passion for seeing the church reach into the community, and that passions could have spread through this conversation. So let's get to it talking with Reverend Doctor. Jevon Caldwell Grows. Pastor Jay, we are looking forward to learning about your practice of digital ministry, but, first, let's start in learning a little bit about you. How goes it with your soul today?

Jevon Caldwell-Gross [00:02:53]:

You know, my soul is great today. It's, kids have just started school. my wife just finished her 1st year, being in Noblesville, 1st United Methodist Church. we had a great vacation this summer. And so we're back on the swing of things. And so my soul is my soul is great. I'm excited.

Ryan Dunn [00:03:11]:

Good. Alright. The refreshments there are not you don't feel drained out after having to come back to the office after a vacation?

Jevon Caldwell-Gross [00:03:18]:

not at all. Not at all. Oh, wonderful. I've got it.

Ryan Dunn [00:03:21]:

Well, your official title is Teaching pastor and online community pastor at St. Luke's in in Indianapolis. I'd love to learn about, like, how you fell into that role or were pulled into that role. Like, when you when you were hired at St. Luke's was online campus pastor part of the title?

Jevon Caldwell-Gross [00:03:42]:

So when I first got to St. Luke's, my wife and I were, passing out of New Jersey. she was on the conference staff there and got an invitation to come to St. Luke's as a clergy couple, actually. So my official title when I started here was a teaching pastor, and I had some, family ministry's responsibilities but we sort of changed after that. And, originally, I was only supposed to preach around 6 to 8 times a year. But because we have 5 services on a Sunday morning, our senior pastor pastor Rob would be in one service, then that would be in the other. So ended up preaching her almost 3 or 4 times a month. And so regular preaching became a part of my responsibility. however, after we did some consulting around how we go into the congregation, I shifted, and part of my responsibilities was supervising our communications ministry, our videographer, our social media. And so there was sort of a small migration and targeted to all my ministry. What was interesting is that before COVID, we would average around 6 to 7 people who worship with us online on a Sunday morning. But we didn't put a lot of emphasis into our online community. We didn't really strategize around it. We didn't put a whole lot of air. I mean, it was just sort of more of an organic, more more of an organic move. But when COVID happened, that's when we totally switched. And my responsibilities became more evident and more focused into, our online campus because now 50% of our congregation is still worshiping with us all live. And we saw approximately 3 thousand people, service Sunday before COVID. And now we're still sitting around those numbers, but we have around 1500 people worship with us online every single Sunday. And so my responsibility has changed in terms of making sure that we develop strategy and a cohesive strategy around how we still minister to those persons to 1500 a congregation. Again, these are not just people who, and this is a wide variety of people, people who joined us from different states, from different countries, Jevon the person who lived down the street, but because of their schedules change, you know, we are there at church home and church family. And so my roads dramatically shifted, and I would try to find innovative ways to help people stay engaged When Sunday morning in person is not their primary way to find community and connection, and how they live out, their faith.

Ryan Dunn [00:06:29]:

Of those fifteen hundred people who are primarily online congregants What percentage would you say are people who were, I guess, regular analog participants in the life of the church before COVID who have now gone primarily online.

Jevon Caldwell-Gross [00:06:48]:

You know, I I think that's a hard number to tell, and I think that just larger conversation, for a lot of churches, and not just for us as well, but the importance of data and the importance of how do we encourage people to be the only one. And before I give an example, before COVID, Sunday morning, we'd ask people to sign in. And signing in became a big thing, and there was our way of asking people to give us their information And it was their way when they signed, they were saying, I wanna be known. I wanna be known by you. And so now, the conversation is how do we encourage those people to want to be known when there's no in person connection? And So how do we now develop, you know, content or develop innovative ways so that people are moving from an anonymous worshiper to giving us their information. Data has become so important. And is their age administrative? And the importance of getting people's names and email addresses and phone numbers is absolutely vital. In fact, we sort of made a shift because asking people to be known before COVID was really us saying, we want you to give us your information for our sake. You know, we, you know, now that conversation is, and a a lot of, a lot of miscellaneous, they will say you know, we have something to offer to you. You know, we we have something vital that we think would help you out and to it's for you to help you to answer the critical questions about life and faith. So we would like for you to give us short information so that you can get something that benefits you as opposed to give us your information that there's benefits to it. Right? So you approach people and how we would make, how how are we making being known, accessible, and easy, and something that doesn't just benefit the congregation but it benefits the people who are out there. Again, data is just really, really important and ways to make people know. This is part of a larger conversation. So, no, I don't think I don't think we have have, you know, who was part of it before and who was part of it now. I think it was still in the beginning of stages, on building their database.

Ryan Dunn [00:09:19]:

Have you found something so far at St. Luke's that you're able to offer where people in the digital space will respond? Like, is there a piece of content? Like, hey. We have this this by part teaching series that we can send you if you provide us some information or something like that? Yeah. So here's something that I would say congregations need to really start with.

Jevon Caldwell-Gross [00:09:39]:

And number one is what are the critical questions about life and faith that your congregation and community are Right. What are what are the critical concerns and questions? and I think that's just a great place to start. I gave an example of something that we tried, and we tried it from and we got this from a different church. There was a church out in Cincinnati, Ohio called Caushell's church. and I noticed I'm I'm I'm a strict junk. And so I I I can see where from what, I'm at the guy at the gym was always playing basketball. It just, you know, and so I really I was watching different churches figuring out what they were what they were doing, what are the nutrients And I noticed Crossroads has something called her 21 day adventure, and they were saying that Normally, people can change their habit that they do something for 21 days. And so they were inviting people to go on a 21 day journey with scripture and with Fady. But in order to do that, you had to sign up to receive the resources and information. And I'll and it was right on their front page. And I thought, wow, what a great way to it was, again, it wasn't, you know, worship, it was that was you opened up in that website, and that's what it was. And I thought, what a great way to invite people to become their own. And because it benefits them, it was about their development. It was it was all centered around them. And so one of the things that we try, we did a sermon series, and we had a resource around anxiety, different ways that you can deal with anxiety. And throughout the service series, every week, we've created a resource page for people. In order to go deeper into the sermon, we developed some additional resources that you could use throughout the week. And so we realized, but but you had to give your name and email address for it. And then we realized, okay, we're not getting people signed in on Sunday. but wow, when we created some content that specifically benefited them. Not for sure. Yeah. But it was something that answered the the critical questions about life and faith. We were getting a lot better response off that. Again, the approach wasn't just let's create something that benefits the church, but let's create something that benefits those people who are in a congregation and those who, are looking for places to be connected with.

Ryan Dunn [00:12:07]:

I wanna explore a little bit more the learning process of moving into a a digital first or a digitally minded ministry when you first started in your role, maybe even before you made it official with the title, do you feel like you had some training in your background that was preparing you for digital ministry? No. There's a lot of, learning on the fly.

Jevon Caldwell-Gross [00:12:31]:

This is the great part about it. And I I'll I'll I'll I'll try to tell pastors, about this as well. is that the great thing about the digital world is that, we're all starting from ground 0. I mean, that that you don't get any training. There's no seminary that trains you, you know, 5 or 10 years ago to do ministry after a global pandemic. I mean, maybe they had some experience with Ted and but but but to the but the fullness of it, none of us are really training data. And so I would say, what some of the things that have been helpful for me was number 1, I was already on social media. And so the social media world wasn't, intimidated to me, because a lot of my connections that I had with people they're there. It already included some hybrid context. And so people out with the high school with, college, with, grad school with, We didn't see each other on Sunday. So they were, you know, my mother lives at Diesel Landsec. So the way that she communicates with her grandchildren, it has a hybrid deck. And so, there's also another book that read around. It was really, really good. It was called canoeing the mountains. And it's not a book about digital ministry, but it is a book about ministry and having the courage to go to uncharted care goals. And I would say some training wasn't just a digital ministry, but it was moving into unfamiliar places. and having to learn very quickly. And so I think that is the, the challenge to moving into digital spaces because sometimes people are trying to figure out, what previous experience do I have? You don't have to have any. But I think you have to first and a knowledge to to learn and try new things and to fail and be really bad at it. I'll give you an example. When we started,

Ryan Dunn [00:14:30]:

We'd love to hear the horror stories. Bring it out. Yep.

Jevon Caldwell-Gross [00:14:33]:

Started COVID, and I would have to record a sermon. It would sometimes take me 2 hours. to record one sermon. But we had but we had to because we have a traditional and a and a contemporary service, had to record 2 different sermons and 2 different, 2 different spaces. So it would take me, and I know my our video people disliked me to do that. But I did not know how to transform my preaching style to an online audience it would just take me so long. What I had to learn how to do that. I had to learn how to be organic, to learn, to just how to how to create online content. We started these things called mobile messages. And so there were these 3 minute clips that I would send out you know, just about every other day during COVID. And, you know, how do you take a servant and break it down after 3 minutes? You know, how do you take something that would help answer the critical questions about life and faith, to to 2 minutes you know, now we're doing these things on social media. You know, now Instagram says it has to be below 90 seconds. Right? Mhmm. create. So but it's about trial. It's about trial and error, you know. And that's what I I really wanna encourage people. Therefore, a lot of pastors, you know, we were trained how to do ministry from a pool pit. we weren't we weren't trained how to create content outside of Sunday morning. So, now, your writing is just important. you know, give them up. So, especially for pastors, the the critical way that you can reach your congregation and your community is sometimes not on Sunday morning. So how to use the vast, places and, you know, the variety of platforms. Because for me, Seminary was around how do you do ministry from the platform? How do you do how do you do ministry on Sunday morning. How do you give a great message? Well, for a lot of people, they're never here. You know? but now, how does it now be innovative? to help people answer those critical questions about life and faith through other platforms, through blogs, and blogs and master classes and all of this different way. Those are the things that we weren't taught. but again, we are able to learn or and been willing to be humble and sometimes started ground 0, and to learn how to be the novice to be I think there's some great possibility in ministry.

Ryan Dunn [00:17:19]:

That master class idea is something that's really intriguing to me. I feel like As the church, we really have just started to break into that space. Have you tried that out much in in your practice and ministry? You know, we haven't tried that out yet. And here's something that,

Jevon Caldwell-Gross [00:17:37]:

when I realized there's possibility in it, there were there were 2 examples that I realized. Number 1, I was going through Facebook one day, and I saw that there was a company that was doing different master classes with people like Steph Curry, president, Barack Obama, and all these different, you know, high, you know, well known people -- Yeah. -- doing these short classes, you know, based on how to And I realized that and then I would see the comments and how many people was signed up for it. Then I saw another colleague of my pastor, Darius Daniels, who started going master classes on things like how to read the Bible, and they went thousands and thousands of people. Because, again, you're trying to help people answer the quest the critical questions about life and faith. And so there are some things that you can't say on Sunday morning. you only get 30 minutes. You only get 52 Sundays. but if you, you know, something as simple as, you know, How to date after your 40s? Man, a lot of people wanna know that. Yeah. but, man, here's a master class on dating on parenting. and I think it is the language of the people that's in our community. Cause if you ask people to go to a Bible study. Now you just limited the scope of who's gonna be attracted to that. Yeah. It is a master class on all the now now you're bringing common language. And so, again, for a lot of, for a lot of pastors and a lot of con you know, I would even say for pastors, the shifting is now not just preacher, but about content creation. And so how do we now take, had the ideas and the church's ability to insert itself into the conversation the community is having because I do think the church has something to say about how people are living their lives and what they need and how they can be connected. But now, to format it and frame it in a way that's accessible to people, I think it's a great possibility. Again, bible studies, I think in some ways, are fading out. But in terms of people attending master classes and a lot of different ways that people receive information has dramatically changed. And I think the churches has to get on there bandwagon, and use these resources.

Ryan Dunn [00:20:10]:

Yeah. Okay. So as you imagine these master classes, do you see that as being like a a synchronously timed Zoom call where people are together, or is it more you're gonna pre record the content and put it out there for people, and there might be discussion around it in other digital forums.

Jevon Caldwell-Gross [00:20:29]:

Well, I think you can do it both because, here here here's what we've learned, during COVID. So during COVID, we had a goal of reaching over 2000 first time debt. So I think it was 2020

Ryan Dunn [00:20:45]:

2004.

Jevon Caldwell-Gross [00:20:46]:

And when I went back and looked at the data, Ryan, I realized that most of our first time guests came outside of Sunday morning. Now let me tell you, so here's the switch in terms of how we approach ministry because, like Saint Luke like most churches, we put, a large amount of people, money, and time resources on what day. Sunday day. Yeah. Right. But then we realize, and we have a plan for Sunday morning. Meetings about Sunday morning. I mean, we lose it's like it's like our big day. But then I realized looking at the data that the majority of people we were reaching have been outside of Sunday morning. but we didn't have a clear strategy, and there was not as as the resources in terms of time and people resources. It was not analogous So what we were putting on Sunday morning. And so it dawned on me and said, man, what if we had a strategy and, you know, I sort of, coined this term, not just Sunday? trying to help people look at how do they strategize outside of Sunday morning? Because for for many of our churches and our communities of community is a thing. The amount of people that we're going to reach on Sunday are limited. But what if we had a strategy to how we reach people outside of Sunday. And so with something like a master plan, I think it's a great way to connect with new people and the community and to help our current congregations to stay engaged. So it's twofold, engagement, and increasing reach. So it was something like a master class, which gives you great potential to do any topic. It can be a live Zoom class. But the great thing about technology is that you can repurpose that. And then you can put that same Zoom class on a place where people can get it outside of that particular hour because times with the material that the church has used to creating If you missed Bible Studer, you missed it. Yeah. Right. If you if you missed the experience the church had to offer, then you then you were just out of luck. But now what Israel Ministry has a potential to do is to now help people to engage in the content or the experience outside of the allotted time. And so I, but I think you've gotta be strategic about when they do that. So I think the possibilities are endless about when you can do master classes for a lot of different things. Because now for the for the for my kids are heavily in the soccer. before the parents who are busy, busy, busy, man. The conversations about parenting are great. But now you've given them the opportunity of an on demand experience. they can, that they can benefit from outside above the people of our world. So --

Ryan Dunn [00:23:40]:

Yeah. Okay. So that they can interface with that stuff when they're sitting in the stands waiting for practice to be over. That kinda They got time to kill. Yeah. What matter with that?

Jevon Caldwell-Gross [00:23:51]:

for the church to be strategic about how to speak into their lives.

Ryan Dunn [00:23:55]:

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Ryan Dunn [00:25:24]:

You brought up data a few times. seems like in addition to being a church donkey, it might be a little bit of a data donkey too. In your role as a campus pastor as an online campus pastor, are there specific points of data that are really intriguing to you or that you tend to focus on?

Jevon Caldwell-Gross [00:25:41]:

You know, so I would say every congregation is different. And what we'd like to start with data is, you know, you are what you measure. And so, there's there's just no way of, helping people to stay engaged without looking at some kind of metrics. And so metrics gives you an idea of where you are, where you're going, where, you know, where you're starting. So there's a couple metrics that we often look at that just gives us an idea of how we are connected with people. So for us, Sunday morning is is still a large way that we reach our online community. So we've looked at our Sunday more than numbers and how many people engage with us online. Now, what that often tells us, again, Sunday morning numbers can be everywhere. in terms of some people do the, you know, they take the attendance and times about 1.5, but at times it when I'm looking at the data, I don't look so much at that, but what I do look at is I look at trends. And so, you know, I'll give you an example of what my, be for me. So there are times when our in person attendance is higher than normal, and I'll go back and look at our online attendance. and it will remain steady. So what that lets me know is is that our online attendance is not just people who in order to grow our in order to grow our in person attendance, it doesn't mean that we had to lower the attendance of our online wish first. And so our online worshipers are there to stay. It's been steady for the past 2 years since our time edition has been opened. for in person wheelchair. And so when we're looking at trends to see, hey, maybe, you know, maybe if we can just get, for instance, a lot of churches think If we can just get our all live worshipers to move to in person attendant, that'll that'll get it back. to say, no, you gotta reach new people. You know, the ability to reach new people is going to help your in person worship. It's not trying to get your all my worship birth back into the seats again, you know. And so that's what our data is telling me. Number 2, I think sometimes our, I look at what people respond to on social media. I'll give you an example. So with digital ministry now, people now have a choice of the content that they connect you with. And I give an example of what I mean by that. So I call this the playlist culture. what I mean by playlist culture is I mean, there used to be a time of day when you when you would buy a CV, like when I would buy a Michael Jackson CD. I listened to all Michael Jackson songs for a whole hour because, you know, but with the playlist, I can listen to Michael Jackson. I can listen to Maverick City Music, Chris Tovelin. I mean, anything Yeah. Mhmm. It now curate different genres, different styles based on my insurance. And I think people are consuming things and connecting with things that they relate to. Right? They don't have to be stuck by just going to one church for everything for all the time. And so now they get them some different ops of what, of what they can do. And what I think this really helps people to do is now they're more value driven. So, churches, I think, and we saw this during COVID with St. Luke's. There's so many people were connecting to our congregation because of certain values that we have. So I looked at how people are connecting with the things that we post on social media from a value perspective. You know, who is who is putting us in their playlist based off that. And I'll give you an example of what this looks like. So on Easter Sunday, we might have 15 shares of our service. And that and that and that's a good number for us. But if we posted something online about how we are impacting people in our community, we might have 80 shares. So what this is what this is telling me is that there's a high value in our congregation about the, about the church being involved in the community, about the church making a difference in the world. So now I'm able to look on social media. I'm able to look at those numbers and see, man, not only what not only what are people engaging in, but what are they sharing? What are they proud of? Right. What do what would they give their time, their money, and their energy to? So it may not be a Sunday morning service, but there might be some other value driven things when we post about us being open or anti racist, tons of engagement. So that's helping to answer the quest the verbal question about life and faith. So I look I look and our social media to see what people are engaging in and who's engaging. And I am sorry. I just let so I gave this last one. there was a misconception that our that, online ministry only connects with younger demographics. But I'm able to look at our social media numbers on Facebook And I mean, with the same, the largest audience of our Facebook is women over the age of sixty five. And so that gives me an idea who's connecting with us and the possibilities and the reach they were able to have. So I was saying for congregations, think about what you find important and then measure that. And so we sort of, did the same thing. And I look at a few of those, to see where we're going and who we're reaching and why.

Ryan Dunn [00:31:50]:

Do you find at St. Luke's that you're concentrating more on specific forms. So you mentioned Facebook. Is that something that you're really kinda dedicated to and that then there are other platforms that you'd assume or have drawn a conclusion that it's just not for you? Yes. So here's the here's here's here's where data's in.

Jevon Caldwell-Gross [00:32:09]:

So we realized that our target audience while we are a larger congregation, we went through a consultant period, and they said in order to reach a maximum growth, you gotta really reached that that demographic between 30 45. And so what, what that data showed us when we lived on Facebook was that our Facebook efforts were not reaching the demographic that our consultant told us that, you know, And so it was challenging to us because we thought, it, hey, no, to reach them. We gotta be really active on this platform. And so we realized that in order to reach people. We have to reach them where they already were. Thirty and forty five year olds who were not spending a lot of time on Facebook anymore. And so if ministry really is again, this is really about ministry in gospel. If ministry really is incarnationally, And, you know, how do we be incarnate and present where people are? We realize we cannot be incarnational with the demographic of 3045 that we spent all of our time on Facebook. So we asked the question about where could we be incarnation? And it was why we started putting a lot more time into TikTok. It was why we started putting a lot more time into Instagram. It wasn't because it was just a popular thing to do, but it was because this is where people already are. And so, how do we help them answer their critical questions about life and faith by meeting them in a platform that they're already familiar with. You know, it's almost like saying, if we knew that thirty and forty five year olds were hanging out at the park across the street, we would build programs about how we connect with them at the park around the street. We wouldn't go to the park around the corner. And digital ministry and social media the same way that we were clear about who we were trying to reach. So then that determined which platform we were already on. So, if you're hearing this, I'm hoping you're realizing it's not just about being on everyone, but it's about having a strategy and knowing who you are trying to reach and why and being developing content on that aspect of that particular platform. Whenever. Yeah. So, I just think it's just a way of us being very particular about where we, where we put the content I mean, there's a reason now why we create, content just for Instagram because it gives us an opportunity now. You know, they're not showing up and droves on Sunday morning, but we connect with 100 of them, by the content that we can produce on social media. And let me say this to people. when we accept new members into the church, we often ask, you know, how did you find that about St. Louis? and a growing number of them has started to say because they heard or saw something or read something off of social media and that got their attention. And so, there are just many ways of reaching new audiences and sometimes just being very strategic about where we choose to be incarnational, that really bring us some fruit.

Ryan Dunn [00:35:29]:

Well, We're we're running out of time, but I do have a couple more questions for you. And one of them that I really wanted to key in on is that you sit space that most of our listeners sit in where you're you're at a, really kind of a traditional church and, I mean, that traditional church in the sense that, you know, you're, organized in a traditional manner and and really still kinda based on having Sunday morning worship in person and that kind of thing. So you have the the in person part of your ministry. You also have the digital part of your ministry. How do you find balance between those 2 different realms, or are there ways that you have to be specific about it? Yeah. Yeah. I it's it's really hard. And that is,

Jevon Caldwell-Gross [00:36:17]:

that's actually probably the one of the most difficult parts of it. because I think every congregation has to be clear about your priorities. And so, and again, there's no right or wrong There's no right or wrong way to do it. I just think clarity is just really important. For instance, for a lot of congregation, the in person experience takes priority. And so for a lot of congregation, they start with what looks the best, what sounds the best, how often would get the best in person experience possible. And being the online experience is sort of an addendum, or it comes Jevon, or it's a supplement to what we do in person. But what often ends up happening is that there's a low quality based on what happens in the room and what happens online. However, for a lot of congregations. The people that you are trying to reach, they're actually online. The people that you're trying to reach, they're not already in person. And so, again, but for some congregation, that's okay. But if you are a congregation that is intentional about growing that you want to reach more people, that you're trying to live out in innovative ways, the great commission, and to be our to be incarnational and the lives of those people who are not already connected, I think we have to do, a shift in terms of our people in terms of our time, in terms of our meetings, in terms of how we create experiences that not only benefit for people, in the room, but also benefit people online. I give example of what this looks like. So for us, when we do our communion on Sunday morning, We just, we just tried this on, we tried this on Monday, Thursday. On Monday, Thursday, we had this, experience where we do this in packed full experience where we have people take communion together and we dim the lights and, you know, But we realized that for people who are connecting with us online dimming the lights and watching people take juice and grade it, if Warren is not engaging. So we said, what about creating a separate piece where we shift from the in person experience? and then we specifically create something that our online communities can participate in that feels intentional for them And it didn't take a whole lot of money. It just took a camera and some intentionality because what that says is you are not just because we always people always talk about they don't want people to just consume online. But if you don't want people to consume online, you have to create something that they can participate in. Yeah. We had to be intentional. Again, we, you know, if you, you know, it it turns to be incarnational. you know, so we had to create experiences that invited people to participate in because sometimes the reason why people consume is that's all that we give them. We only give them things to consume. but I think that we give them things to connect with, to participate in And so, again, we just shifted to a whole different place in the room, and and then we spoke directly to them. We said we know you. We see you. We love you. We care about you, and we're willing to do something extra to make you feel like that you are part of this faith community. that you're not just hovering and watching you in, but you are not participating and a and a and a vital part of this faith that you and a and a little intentionality for people goes a long way.

Ryan Dunn [00:40:01]:

Yeah. Yeah. I've heard the invitation to consider How do you put that online participant in the front row or in the first few? That's right. That's right. And

Jevon Caldwell-Gross [00:40:12]:

how do you help the people in the room value what you're doing online. So so so that when you do something, for the online community, they're not thinking, oh, that's for those people out there. You know, it's it it is they value it enough. So now you gotta start vision task. You know, now you vision pass to the people in the room that they are also a part of a larger community. And there is another

Ryan Dunn [00:40:45]:

1500

Jevon Caldwell-Gross [00:40:45]:

people or 30 people who are connecting with us online. and they are just as important to the people in the room so that when you do address them, when you do look into the camera, when you do use an example, The people in the people in the room are not bothered by the whole, you know, they're doing something for them. No. No. No. This is, we're all part of our faith community. And so none of us are just watching. None of us are just consuming, but that comes through intentional vision casting and attempt more strategic moves to help people see that they are part of something larger that not only the church is doing, it's something that god is doing.

Ryan Dunn [00:41:26]:

That is rich. Alright. Well, this will be the last question that I throw at you pastor, Jake. What do you what are you dreaming of doing in ministry next?

Jevon Caldwell-Gross [00:41:35]:

That's a, you know, you you ask. You know, that's a that's a interesting question because, I think the way ministry has changed has even changed the way I, he, what's next for me. And I would say part of what I think is next with me is kind of 2 or 3 fold. Number 1, I think I wanna do a lot more teaching and writing, consulting, and helping kinder dishes figure this out. And I say that because I started off in ministry at a church that was really small, and I always wist that there will be other people who would be available to to help to to just have, as a thinking partner and to help people to do that. And I think I've been blessing up in ministry to have, small church, reading church, and law church experience. And I find joy in giving back and helping churches out. you know, I started doing something totally with, churches called not just Sunday, speaking to different conferences, and different people to help strategize outside of Sunday morning. So I think, you know, as long as I'm in pastoral ministry, I think I always want to be able to get back to churches and being in a position where I could do that. and especially in terms of, again, writing, because I I do think the decline of the Sunday morning creature is happening, and being able to impact My wife and I just had an opportunity to write a book. and if, you know, it was a great, great experience for us. it's around Joseph dreaming and how do we help people to dream again? And so, that has been great. came out with another book with 3 other authors card on purpose. How do we help finding our passions through god's glory? And so those different things, I think, you know, as long as I'm still in pastoral Ministry is finding time, a part CTS, you know, finding finding different ways to still preach and use my voice, outside of the pool pit. and, yeah, I think the way that people consume information. And when Jesus says, go, go, you, therefore, I don't think he meant go eat there for on Sunday morning, you know, go eat them and preaching cool bits. it was around how do we use the spaces that we're in, as a tool to help people experience the love of Jesus Christ. And I think being innovative in ways to do that. I'm excited about this phase of menstrual. I didn't go to I didn't go to seminary for it. but I'm excited about going into uncharted territory.

Ryan Dunn [00:44:34]:

Well, thanks for helping tool us up to move into the, the uncharted territory of the digital spaces and -- love to learn about, what you have done and what you're looking forward to do as well. So thank you so much for giving us this time today. Thanks, Ryan. It's a pleasure being here. And, thank you so much for the invitation. I could talk about this all day.

Ryan Dunn [00:44:55]:

Thanks a lot for the time to space. I appreciate it. Good, good, good stuff. I can't think of a better way to put a wrap on this season of Pastor in the digital parish, our 6th season of the podcast. We're now gonna take a break for a couple months and retool for next season, but you wanna get more pastoring in the dish, digital parish into your life and into your head, some good follow-up episodes include one called We Have a church live stream. Now what? It's got more practical ideas for reaching community beyond Sunday morning. And I think season 4's evangelism through social name would be another good follow-up episode. In this one, pastor Jade just talked about addressing people's questions so that evangelism through social episode helps us figure out what those questions are. And Nelson Massanda leads us through a process of really kinda getting our fingers on the pulse of what people care about. My name is Ryan Dunn. I'd like to thank resource UNC.org, the online destination, For leaders throughout the United Methodist church, they make this podcast possible. And of course, they host our website, fasteringinthedigitalpairs.com, where you can find more on line resources for ministry. I also want to thank safer sanctuaries for their support. Again, safer sanctuaries, nurturing trust within fake communities is a new and comprehensive resource that continues the tradition of safe sanctuaries ministry by building on its trusted policies and procedures. The resource contains theological grounding for the work of abuse prevention, basic guidelines for risk reduction, age Jevon at guidance and step by step instructions on how to develop, revise, update, and implement an abuse prevention plan. Hey. If you wanna connect with the path in the digital parish community, check out our past string in the digital parish group on Facebook. And you can also send me questions and ideas for future sessions [email protected]. We'll be back with a new season in a couple of months In the meantime, peace.