Digital Parish: Understanding online behavior with Kelly Price

Kelly Price:

But church's need marketing because consumer behavior happens wherever consumers are present, and that counts for church.

Ryan Dunn:

That was the voice of Dr. Kelly Price, who was our adjunct professor for this session of Pastoring in the Digital Parish. My name is Ryan Dunn. I'm a minister and online content creator who's always looking for resources, ideas, and community that lead us to making spiritual connections with new people in digital space. Pastoring in the Digital Parish is all about providing that and more for those of us engaged in digital ministry. Whether we're a full-time online campus pastor or a volunteer church communicator, or a solo pastor trying to hold together a dispersed congregation. We've talked previously on this podcast about the fact that our behaviors in digital space are often self-focused. When we engage with online content, we're generally doing so for the benefit of ourselves, we consume things, selfishly. At least, that has been my working hypothesis for much of the online content I create.

Ryan Dunn:

Dr. Kelly Price, is going to put that hypothesis to the test as she speaks with us about digital consumer behavior. In other words, she's going to give us an in-depth perspective on why many of us do the things we do online. Recognizing these motivations offers us some great ideas on how we can more effectively meet and build relationships with people through digital content. This is a really interesting topic and conversation. I'm glad you're with us. Let's meet our adjunct professor. Dr. Kelly Price is with us. She's an associate professor and master of digital marketing program for East Tennessee State University. She presents at conferences and her research interests are women's golf, consumer behavior and online teaching, certainly a couple of things that are extremely relevant for our audience. Kelly, thank you so much for reaching out and joining in this session of pastoring in the Digital Parish. Hope you're doing well today.

Kelly Price:

Doing great. Thank you so much, Ryan, I appreciate it. So this is a wonderful podcast. I recommend it highly to everyone. So I'm glad to be a part of it.

Ryan Dunn:

Cool. Well, I have to admit I'm a little nervous about this session because we're covering consumer behavior and that's not a topic that I know an awful lot about. So if we can kind of drop down to the base level, if you can provide for us kind of a working definition of what consumer behavior is like, what are you focusing on in your study of that?

Kelly Price:

Absolutely. Well, most people will say they don't know a lot about consumer behavior, but all of us are one. So we consume a little bit of everything, every day. I actually wrote down a textbook definition and then I'll give you that one and then I can and give you my version as well. But let me read this one to you and see what you think. Consumer behavior is the study of individuals, groups, or organizations and the processes they use to select, secure, use and dispose of products, services, experiences, or ideas to satisfy needs and the impacts that these processes have on the consumer and society. So there you go.

Ryan Dunn:

That's a lot.

Kelly Price:

It's not, it's a mouthful but it does incorporate organizations and that includes faith-based organizations. Now, my version of consumer behavior is, it's the psychology side of marketing. And we have the analytics side, you hear a lot about that inside of digital marketing. The analytics and you've talked to several people on this podcast who have addressed that, but we also have the psychology side. This is the side that asks why. I tell my students this all the time, the analytics are really awesome and we need them and use them a lot. But there's a person behind those numbers, who are generating those numbers. Why are they doing this? How did we get to that number? So that's what consumer behavior is just looking around, just asking a whole lot of questions of why.

Ryan Dunn:

Okay. Well, speaking of why, why is it so interesting to you? Why have you chosen this as a course of study?

Kelly Price:

Well, I have a pretty heavy retail background, apparel buying that type of thing. And anytime that I think I've seen everything and then something else would happen, consumers are just fascinating to me. Everybody is a case study waiting to happen. In my opinion, it's just fascinating to watch why people do things, why they buy things, why they don't, why they lock this brand, why they don't, it's just, all those values and motivations certainly play into consumer behavior. It's something that's never ending and it changes all the time. So it's just fun to watch people watching for a living.

Ryan Dunn:

Yeah. One of the things that I've learned in doing this podcast is that in church world, we don't like to kind of talk about things from a marketing aspect. Like for some reason marketing terms, just they make us in church world a little bit uncomfortable and that is something that's totally like a wall that's internal for us, because we engage in so many marketing behaviors. So why might consumer behavior be important for churches or ministries or faith groups to be aware of?

Kelly Price:

Well, I totally get what you're saying from the church aspect. And since I've been so involved, as a Certified Lay Minister from the UMW leadership perspective, there's a lot of marketing that still happens. It's almost like marketing gets a bad rap, they're always trying to trick people and manipulate consumers. And yes, there are certainly that I teach an ethics course and we get a lot of that digital marketing ethics. So yes, there is a fine line, but churches need marketing because it doesn't matter, consumer behavior happens wherever consumers are present and that counts for church. It's important that we investigate all these behaviors that people have. We'll talk more about them in a minute. I'm sure of these external and internal motivations and habits that churches care about. So I would encourage church leaders to think about marketing in a sense that can still do good. Marketing can still be a good thing. It's just sort of like social media, we see so much bad stuff, but gosh, social media does such good as well.

Ryan Dunn:

Yeah. Well, in marketing just isn't about kind of dollars and cents, is it?

Kelly Price:

Absolutely not.

Ryan Dunn:

I heard it expressed that marketing can actually be the opening of a relationship. And if we think about it in that terms, like that is certainly appropriate for the church world, because we talk about faith being a relationship like this is kind of what we are in the "Business to do", right?

Kelly Price:

Yeah.

Ryan Dunn:

Open up relationships. Well, when it comes to consuming digital content, I love that you're able to kind of put these two things together, not just the consumer behavior, but also our kind of our lead in digital content. So in consuming digital content, what are we seeing as some motivations? What have you noticed people are looking for when they're like surfing around online?

Kelly Price:

Yeah. And why are they doing that, right?

Ryan Dunn:

Yeah, absolutely.

Kelly Price:

Motivation is the reason for the behavior. So I mentioned a second ago, this external and internal influences. And what I mean by that, because that leads to motivation. External influences are things like, that impact us and impact our behaviors, purchase behavior and all other behaviors. But we're talking about purchase here, or consuming behavior here. Those are like culture that you grow up in the values that you have, things like that. The people that are around you, we call them reference groups, your reference groups, like your friends, your parents, things like that. But we also have these internal influences that are formed.

Kelly Price:

Those are learning or self-concepts, memory, attitudes, those types of things. And those lead into why we do things, the reasoning of it all. There's a bunch of really boring theories that I could go into, of course, but I have to tell you one of my favorites is called the McGuire theory and it's been around since 1960ish or so. And what this theory says, and this is very applicable to church is that there are four main categories of why people do things. And one of them is effective. That's the feeling we have about something, the cognitive, which is what we believe about something what we're thinking.

Kelly Price:

And sometimes those two things can clash. But we also have something called preservation motive. And that means we're just trying to maintain what we're doing. We're kind of keeping things where they are because we like it. And then the last one has to do with growth and growth is we're doing something to grow ourselves. We're doing something to make things better or whatever. So you have these four main categories of why people are thinking about doing things, you see. So that's a motivation and discovering those motives, I think one of the most interesting things about consumers is that they don't realize often that they have motivations.

Ryan Dunn:

Yeah.

Kelly Price:

Yeah. That we have these lightened versus manifest motives that the lightened ones are the ones that they don't really want to admit. And the manifest ones are the ones that they will admit. Like, oh, I need that brand new bright red sports car. Well, you may not acknowledge you want to feel younger, but you'll say, oh, well I need it because it goes fast or whatever.

Ryan Dunn:

Mm-hmm.

Kelly Price:

Yes. So those motivations can vary quite heavily.

Ryan Dunn:

Yeah. Well, from the educational world, have you noticed that there are certain motivations that lead people, like any one specific motivation that lead people towards engaging with a particular piece of content or signing up for a particular course?

Kelly Price:

Mm-hmm. Some of it's convenience. We have so many students who are working at various hours, they have families, they have other obligations. And so my program happens to be 100% online so they can engage whenever they want to. And I know that you've addressed that before as well that we are consuming products, church included when we want to and how we want to. So same thing with education as well. So convenience is a factor, but there's all these other motivations that are pushing it as well.

Ryan Dunn:

Okay. In talking about that is you've made this shift from, I assume at one point you were like 100% in the classroom teaching people and now shift to a total digital focus. Do you think the efficacy of, or quality of your teacher to student engagement has changed?

Kelly Price:

Well, I'll tell you. It's kind of a funny story because yes, I was on ground for years and enjoyed it, loved it. And then one day my Dean came to me and she said, we're going to start this new program, is 100% online. It's a master's degree. We want you to head it up. We want you to get on the ground and get it moving. And I was like, I don't know, I really love being in the classroom. I love seeing my students' faces, the whole thing-

Ryan Dunn:

Yeah. Was some familiar motivations[crosstalk 00:12:38].

Kelly Price:

Yeah. So I had to, but after I got in it, and now that I've been in it for a while, I don't want to go back. And the reason is, students are just as engaged. And what's interesting is that on ground, let's say I had a pretty big class. I would teach classes that could be, had 100 in them. So I would say those people, those students twice a week, hour and a half, some of them come in and go out. I don't ever talk to them. But online, I know everybody. I engage with them, somehow they're so open to talking with me. I know their dogs names and what they do for a living and all that type of stuff. So I'm actually more engaged with my students in the digital environment than I was on ground. So yes, absolutely the education, the quality, the rigor is no different. In fact, some studies say it's better.

Ryan Dunn:

Mm-hmm. Why do you think you're more engaged with them or they're more engaged, period.

Kelly Price:

Mm-hmm. It's a comfortable space for me. You do have to learn some of the tools of how to do that. We use a platform at my university, and most universities have something like that, but there are different tools on there of chat features and videos and all that type of stuff that are pretty easy to use. And you just have to learn how to use those and how to get people involved. And they will, they will. If you give them the shot, they will.

Ryan Dunn:

I'll bet. Each one of us could probably name like something that we're doing online now that we formerly did in person and thought like, oh, this is something that we can only do in person. But in terms of the research that you've done, have you noticed some trends over the past two years that people are increasingly moving from, I guess from an in-person standpoint to consuming this, or interacting in this particular sphere primarily through digital means?

Kelly Price:

Mm-hmm. I mean, there's a yes and no component to that, that yes, we have certainly changed how we've done things. It was almost like a forced motivation, as we've said, we had to do some of those things, but it's almost like we were moving that way, anyway. It just happened a lot quicker and that's true for education as well. So yes, the how, when and how we consume, where we consume it has all changed.

Kelly Price:

In consumer behavior, we know that it takes about 60 days or so to break a habit or make one. And people went out of church pretty quickly, and we stayed out for longer than 60 days. So something changed there. Most likely there was a habit that changed. So getting people sometimes back in the building is going to be a little tougher because it's been over 60 days and it's not tough to change that.

Ryan Dunn:

Yeah.

Kelly Price:

So yes, things have changed, but no, on the other side, because as we mentioned a minute ago, those external influences that impact people like culture and values maybe did not change. My values as a Methodist or whatever you want to say is still the same pre in the middle of the pandemic and on its way out, hopefully has not changed. And that's how consumers will tend to operate. We're tough cookies. We don't like change a lot.

Ryan Dunn:

Yeah. I've noticed.

Kelly Price:

Yeah. Yeah. It's one of those like my mom uses Tod's, so I use Tod's kind of things. So it'll stick with us.

Ryan Dunn:

Well, as we kind of look at consumer trends, like in church world, we don't necessarily want to be riding consumer trends. Like there's an aspect where we hope to influence some of the behavior. So maybe what are some ways that from a church standpoint or ministry standpoint, we can begin to influence some consumer attitudes.

Kelly Price:

Yeah. Consumer attitudes, in my opinion, is one of the toughest things to do in marketing, in digital marketing consumer behavior. So it's a big job. Attitude formation is generally long term and we learn it pretty early. Sometimes you'll see brands that, this person will drive a certain car brand and that's it. And nothing can change their minds and they wouldn't be caught dead in another one, that type of thing, the Ford Chevy kind of argument. But we learned these attitudes from somewhere. It could be families, it could be ads, it could be on a social media. And so we're forming these attitudes and they can get pretty deep seated sometimes, or most of the time, but where the opportunity lies for churches and for any brand really, is that when we form these attitudes, we either have a positive, a negative or neutral attitude.

Kelly Price:

And so the positive people, that's good that we have a positive attitude about brand X, about this charge or whatever. The negative, it's a little tougher than neutral. There's the opportunity we've got people sitting on the fence. So that's a good thing, but to try to change some of those attitudes, we have some strategies to do that. We can try to think change the cognitive, as I was saying a minute ago about thinking, and to do that we have to help consumers by changing their beliefs about us or add beliefs that might be in as for a product, we added so much of this ingredient kind of thing. So it's better than it was. So we try to change what you think about it, or we can try to change how you feel about us.

Kelly Price:

Again, that's pretty tough, but one of the ways we do that is through just exposure, over and over and over and over. And that's what those ads do that sometimes that pop-ups so much. Well, eventually the exposure gets to you. It's like a jingle that just won't go away, but eventually it may grow on you a little bit or you're still singing it. But another way that we can change it as behavioral aid, we're going to try to change how you behave. And again, that's a tough one. One of the ways that we do that is to market the reward. If you do this, it's almost like a classical conditioning thing. If you do this, this will happen, kind of thing. I read a study the other day. It was pretty interesting and I wrote my note down here about one of the findings that the more people anticipate getting a social benefit from church related activities, the higher their extent of participation.

Ryan Dunn:

Mm-hmm.

Kelly Price:

So yeah. So if they perceive that they're getting these social benefits, this behavior then their extended the participation will go up. So that's a good thing. But yeah, and sometimes it's weird though, because consumers will behave different than how they think, like you could say I do not like this restaurant, but my friend wants to go there, so I will go there. It's like you're doing something different, you're behaving differently than how you think or feel about something. So it's a tough go on attitudes.

Ryan Dunn:

So when you're talking about social benefit. Does that just mean that we're going to be able to make friends or interact with people?

Kelly Price:

Exactly. It's just like communicating with a brand on social media. We, as a brand, we want to communicate with you. We want to build the relationship with you, long-term, so same thing here, those social benefits of feeling good about it and building that brand community and churches can do that.

Ryan Dunn:

Yeah. Okay. So from the aspect of like[crosstalk 00:20:45]. Yeah. From the aspect that we really want to get to know you type. Okay. All right. Are there some examples that you can think of where churches are kind of leaning into some of these motivations or like driving consumer behaviors?

Kelly Price:

Mm-hmm. I'm just trying to think of a few of the churches locally that I've seen. You know what's interesting is that you can be driving down the road and see on a car like a sticker and it's a logo of one of those churches and you boom, you know it. And I'm sitting there going, wait, I haven't seen a flame or anything around here. Where's logo? Where's my sticker. Some of those churches are very good at selling the reward and putting that logo out there and saying, here's what you're going to get if you come here.

Kelly Price:

And there they can be aggressive about it and not in a bad way, but they can be marketing aggressively and those parking lots are full when I go by there. Now, that's also to say that a full parking lot doesn't mean quality. So in marketing we say, well, you can have 5 million followers, but if 500 are the quality ones, that's who you really want to engage with. So there's a back and forth with having the logo on your car, if that's a good thing or not.

Ryan Dunn:

Yeah. Okay. I'm still thinking about the social benefits of like, as we engage with content online, maybe we'll get specific and say like through Facebook, what are some of the, I guess, benefits that deliver? Does that make sense? As we're looking to post content on a weekly basis, daily basis for our institutions, what might be the content that really kind of plays into or meets the demand, so to speak of the consumers who were interacting with?

Kelly Price:

That's actually a really good question. I've read some studies about that. And we're seeing that sometimes the timing of these posts are even more important than the emotional or social factor.

Ryan Dunn:

Really.

Kelly Price:

Yes. We're starting to see time as being an issue. There is no really perfect post. And we talk about that in my social media class a lot, because some of them will come in and say, well, what can I do to make this perfect post? And everybody-

Ryan Dunn:

We all want to know this secret of-

Kelly Price:

Oh, man. No, consumer behaviors, we'll say, sorry, that's not happening. It's never going to happen. The analytics are good but people are behind that numbers, so it's going to change. But we're seeing that a lot of brands will play on these appeals, like fear appeal or emotional appeal, humor. Humor works. Humor is a good thing, and church isn't supposed to be funny, but it can be humorous that can still have a personality.

Ryan Dunn:

Sure. Yeah. Maybe that's another way of thinking of it. It's not trying to kind of cut towards it. A lot of times our humor goes to cutting towards it or into something, but maybe we just want to think about it as kind of like having a bit of a frivolous personality.

Kelly Price:

It's okay. Yes. Your church absolutely can have a personality. My church's personality is very different from first church in town. We do different things. Yes, we have a lot of same values, but our personalities are different just like people. So it's okay to do that.

Ryan Dunn:

So talking about timing then, are there trends in timing that we should be aware of?

Kelly Price:

It depends on the brand, unfortunately. Sorry. It really depends, and analytics do help that if you say that you're getting a lot of engagement between 12:00 and 1:00 lunchtime on a Monday. Yes. But with faith based organizations, I haven't seen anything particularly different that is crucial for us to know that yes, you need to have this on here on Friday at five o'clock type of thing. But again, it really depends on who that audience is and who you're trying to get in there or not.

Ryan Dunn:

So the invitation might be to just kind of play around with it.

Kelly Price:

I would, yes, absolutely play around with it and then as soon as you figure it out, it'll change.

Ryan Dunn:

Yeah. Right. But my now, probably three-year-old practice of posting every day at 8:30 may not be the best.

Kelly Price:

May not get it. No.

Ryan Dunn:

Got you.

Kelly Price:

Not anymore. Yeah. And then the element of surprise is kind of fun and when people shop online, they love the art of the deal. They love flash sales. It's just fun because shopping is a, it's entertainment. It is entertainment. It's something that people love to do together. That's why stores or retail stores are still going to be around. They're not going away anytime soon. People enjoy the experience of it and that's no different from this. So it's fun to have the element of surprise, oh, your pastor is going to go live and so and so.

Ryan Dunn:

Oh, yeah.

Kelly Price:

You will be surprised to hear how many people would kind of go for that. So it's still fun to do things like that, make it fun.

Ryan Dunn:

Yeah. When I was trying to imagine, I think part of the thrill of shopping is that it is time sensitive, especially when we start talking about a deal that's going to end in two days, right?

Kelly Price:

Yes. Yes.

Ryan Dunn:

Like we want to get in there, say we got that deal before it ended, right?

Kelly Price:

Absolutely.

Ryan Dunn:

I know I was trying to think of some ways of, well, in the church world, how do we kind of play into that sense of urgency or the thrill of urgency? Have you seen that happening either like within the church institution or in the educational institution?

Kelly Price:

You know who's really good at this and retail world is QVC.

Ryan Dunn:

Yeah. Right. We have hours, right?

Kelly Price:

Yes. This price will go away at the end of the day, people really go for that, but it's fun to them. It's a motivation. With education, time can be a factor because a lot of times when I talked to potential students, the first thing they'll say is how long will it take me to finish this program? And so there's a flexibility there that we can play with. But so time is a factor and we use that a lot in marketing of short term benefits. This coupon is good until so and so.

Kelly Price:

So churches may be able to incorporate a little bit of that, of not a negative top of urgency. Oh, we are going to do that. You need to do this before something happens and in and Institute that fear appeal, but more of a time an emotional appeal maybe, or let's think about this type of thing. A post that may get people thinking, and maybe something like answer this before the end of the day, your purchase is going to come back on and talk about it. I mean, so you can use time in a really good way that might make people feel uptight, but can still say that it's okay. And use time to your benefit.

Ryan Dunn:

Okay. And think about our audience, I think probably most of us have some experience now in digital marketing, but not necessarily have much training in digital marketing. And maybe that's similar to some of your incoming students. So in aligning us with those perspective students, like are there some attitudes or ideas that you see a lot of them coming in with that they need to be disavowed of pretty quickly like some misconceptions, commonly held misconceptions of new students?

Kelly Price:

Yeah. That's a good question. We generally have two groups of students that come in. One of the groups is the professionals. They're already working, they're already in digital marketing. And they come in with such a analytics mindset that they... And that's okay. Please don't think that that's a bad thing, but there's just this whole other side of strategy and research and consumer behavior and the why part. So I kind of have to push them a little bit back and say, okay, this is great, but let's look at this other side.

Kelly Price:

And then the students will come in and they think just that digital marketing is social media and that's it. All they know is TikTok. And then I'm like, but there's a whole another world out there. And social marketing or social media is just one of the tools of many. Yes, you probably need it but not everybody needs it but we need to step back and see that social media is not the end of the world or you have to have it. So I have to break that mold just a little bit. Let them see the full picture.

Ryan Dunn:

Yeah. Well, expand that horizon for us. What else is there?

Kelly Price:

Well, you've got to look at the consumer behavior side. You have addressed so many in this podcast that were so good of the tools and the Twitch and we've talked about Twitch for years in my classes, and it's been really fun to watch that progression of how that platform has moved, but then what people will start getting in, my own pastor said this, I need to be on TikTok and I'm like, why? You need to pick your platform or pick what you want to do. And I see that a lot with church colleagues that say, well, I've got to fix this Facebook. I've got to do it. I'm like, let's pull it back just for a second and do what's genuine because consumers can see something that is not genuine in a split second.

Ryan Dunn:

Mm-hmm.

Kelly Price:

They can see right through a marketing campaign that is not real or doesn't feel good or is too much, you know?

Ryan Dunn:

Yeah. Okay.

Kelly Price:

I'm thinking of, it's been a couple of years, there was a super bowl ad that was just, it was a downer. And now I don't even remember who it was, but everybody was like, what just happened right there? We're having a good time. Everybody, these commercials are great. And then somebody puts this horrible commercial. I won't say it was insurance or something and it just ruined the mood for everybody. So anyway, consumers will see through something that is not genuine. So just being your personality self. You don't have to be on every single platform. In fact, that will be a bad thing in the end.

Ryan Dunn:

Yeah. So don't just jump on the space to be on the space.

Kelly Price:

No, no, you got to pick your battles on that one. So it's okay not to be everywhere. And like I said, in fact you shouldn't, because then you'll get on let's say Twitter or whatever, and then you don't post for three weeks. Well, because you're trying to do something on TikTok, and then it's just out of control. It doesn't do good for the brand at all.

Ryan Dunn:

Right. Okay. Well, this has been such a good introductory conversation for us into consumer behavior, especially as it relates to the digital world. I know we have just scratched the surface. So I'm going to kind of pick your mind, off the top of your mind here. But what are some resources that we might want to consider for like taking the next step? Like where can I get some more information on consumer behavior, especially as it might apply to like ministry in the digital world?

Kelly Price:

Mm-hmm. A few places, of course, just some general random searching online. We'll at least give you, just consumer behavior issues. Like we said in the beginning, consumers are everywhere. We are all one. So you can just look at the news and see what's happening in consumer behavior. Another really good place professionally are practitioner organizations, the American Marketing Association. And they post a lot of wonderful things. Now you have to be a member to get to all of the content, but they still have a lot of good introductory content there as well.

Kelly Price:

So you may want to take a course in consumer behavior because, I tell my student this all the time like, think about your courses and you tell me one of them that would be around if you didn't take consumer behavior. Would any of the other ones be around if consumers weren't in them? Like retailing and all those other things like no. So understanding the consumer at their core is super important. So that might be a useful thing as well. But again, consumerism is everywhere, so you can get things out of magazines and whatever, and just sort of understand that basic idea of what consumer behavior is.

Ryan Dunn:

Yeah. Okay. All right. Cool. Any particular magazines that might be of super help? Are there particular resources that you go back to again and again?

Kelly Price:

I look at it at some practitioner, things like AMA, but some other things like Fast Company, I think they're really good at looking at consumer behavior and Mashable and things like that. But yeah, those are my main ones. And of course I get into some of those really boring scholarly journal articles that most people don't want to get into and that's okay. But yeah, so you can find consumer behavior almost anywhere.

Ryan Dunn:

Cool. Dr. Price, thank you so much for spending this time with us giving us this little introduction. Where would be a good spot to kind of check out some of your work?

Kelly Price:

Oh, absolutely. Again, I'm at East Tennessee State University and the digital marketing program there. So if you just Google that, you'll get right to the main website there, and you can always email me. My email address is on there. So that's where you'll find everything.

Ryan Dunn:

Great. Well, we appreciate it so much. Thanks for joining us in this session, friend. If you'd like to continue in conversation about this topic or any topic we discuss on Pastoring in the Digital Parish, then check out pastoring in the Digital Parish Facebook group. If you'd rather keep listening and that's much appreciated too. If you enjoyed this episode, then you'll probably get really into our episode with Mike Kim about building relationships through branding, or you might get into our conversation with Dana Malstaff, about building engaging Facebook groups.

Ryan Dunn:

Again, my name is Ryan Dunn. Big thanks to United Methodist Communications for sponsoring this podcast. Check out more @resourceumc.org. This episode is coming out near the closing of season two. In fact, there are just two episodes left until we take a little holiday break. So don't miss them. And with that, I'll be back with you next week when we talk about time-saving content creation tips with Dan Wunderlich.

Peace